Topic: Living change no limbs questions

[Nders]

The following currently interest me: a person with only one arm uses living change to change into another humanoid race - is he still one armed? Would this change with more powerful versions of the spell?

[vroomfogle]

Interesting question. 

I think that since you are physically not a whole person, that what you turn into should also not be whole and that you would still be missing an arm.   For other change spells, such as into non humanoids, perhaps it would be a missing leg instead, or even some other body part.  I would treat it the same at higher levels.

[yammahoper]

I'd allow full limbs while the spell is in effect.  With a duration of 10min/lvl it would be difficult to always keep it up.  OTOH, if I was playing and the GM declared the missing limb was represented in the new form, I'd have no problem with that.

[Cory Magel]

Change to Kind (5th level Living Change list) does not allow for size differential (a hobbit can't appear to be a normal human), however Changing (11th level Living Change list) allows for up to a 200% increase in size and the form of "any organic form".  So I'd just use the parameters of the spells given on that basis to allow for the replaced limb.

Of course, then the player will ask if it's possible to get their arm back (temporarily of course) using the 2nd level Enlarge spell.  If you're generous go for it, if not I'd state the intent of that spell is merely meant to increase your size, while Changing actually allows for the alteration of your form.

[arakish]

I would do like yamma says, only while the spell is in effect.  Otherwise, he is still one unarmed.

rmfr

[vroomfogle]

Sounds like a perfect use for Spell Mastery as well.

[markc]

I rule as Matt Hanson does but I also use my own judgement as to the intent of the spell as Cory Magel does.
MDC

[B Hanson]

A good example of the importance of integrating the new size rules with spell law. My initial thought: If the spell allows for a size increase than a new limb is allowed, but if the size is the same or less then the lack of limb carries through.

[Cory Magel]

My own reasoning for allowing it with the 11th level Changing spell is specifically because it allows you to alter yourself to "any organic form".  If all it did was increase your size I, personally, wouldn't allow it.  Just as a wild example, enlarging a picture doesn't allow you to add more substance to it... it just makes what's already there bigger.

[yammahoper]

I don't hear anyone arguing to allow an enlarge spell to add limbs.

However, if the spell allows you assume any humanoid shape, and you assume the shape of a lizzardman, there would be a tail.  A sharkman would have a tail and fins.  A Hizari would have wings.  An aquatic elf would have gills.  But none of these forms would have special movement abilities or the be able to breathe under water.  Limbs seem a given.

[rdanhenry]

And a vard orc would have four arms. (But you wouldn't get the coordination to take advantage of them, if the spell was only form-granting.)

[Cory Magel]

I don't hear anyone arguing to allow an enlarge spell to add limbs.

Then you didn't read the post before mine.   (Not picking on you B Hanson, it's a GM call and it's not like I'm saying YOU'RE WRONG!)

However, if the spell allows you assume any humanoid shape, and you assume the shape of a lizzardman, there would be a tail.  A sharkman would have a tail and fins.  A Hizari would have wings.  An aquatic elf would have gills.  But none of these forms would have special movement abilities or the be able to breathe under water.  Limbs seem a given.

Any humanoid shape (i.e. being able to alter your shape) in the sense of the 11th level spell is not the same as merely enlarging your current shape as in the 2nd and 5th level spells.

I look at it as "Change to Kind" is just altering your existing racial appearance.  Temporarily regrowing a limb would be adding mass that the spell does not allow.  "Enlarge" takes your existing shape and merely enlarges it.  So I wouldn't allow the regrown limb in either case.  However "Changing" allows for both alteration of shape and size, so I would allow it.

Although, a small part of my ruling is based on the fact that I don't know as if it's balanced to let a lower level spell allow you to grow an extra limb, which is what would be happening.  The duration of those spells is VERY long in terms of combat.  I can just see Fighters wanting to grow a couple extra arms and trying to attack four times in one round. lol

[yammahoper]

I did miss that post.   

We define additional limb differently here.  Replacing a lost limb that would normally be there strikes me as different than growing two new arms resulting in four arms total. 

As for extra mass; the spell already rearranges mass to create the new form.  Total mass would stay the same, but be redistributed by the magic.

Eh, different strokes.   Besides, if I sat at you table I'd have no problem with the ruling, though I would ask to use Spell Mastery then.  If that skill is prohibited, I'd realize I should have played a fighter. 

[Cory Magel]

I guess I'd just define "extra limb" really simple: More than you currently have (not what you originally should have had).  So if you're missing an arm, getting it back via a spell is increasing mass.  The lower level spells on that list are really intended to just alter the outward appearance of your existing body, not change the size or shape of it.   So the 5th level,Change to Kind; That means you're changing to something that is essentially the same form as you, but with a different appearance.  So, Elf to Human, Human to Lizard Man and so on.  But not Hobbit to Human or Elf to Hobbit.  That's a mass change that this spell does not cover.  Enlarge (2nd level) takes your current form and just makes it bigger, like blowing up a picture.  You don't alter it, you just make it bigger.  But when you get to the 11th level spell it says you can take ANY organic form with up to a 200% size difference... that's when I'd let you get your arm back via the spell.

But I am all for Spell Mastery and, yeah, I think I'd allow that in this case, particularly in the case of the "Enlarge" spell.  The more creative we can be as players (without getting into the absurd - heh, fireballs, but anyhow...) the more fun the game IMO.

[Moostik]

And a vard orc would have four arms. (But you wouldn't get the coordination to take advantage of them, if the spell was only form-granting.)

For this reason, I'd allow having two arms in the new form, but still only one would be usable for any practical purposes. The character's brain no longer know how to operate the arm that's not supposed to be there, because of the missing nerves in his/her "real" body. But then I'd allow spell mastery to allow control over any new limb, or even rule differently if the spell success was beyond absolute.

[markc]

  For extra limbs or strange creatures I generally rule that there is a time requirement to get used to the form and until you do you have penalties. So if you change into a bird you have to learn how to fly you do not automatically know how to fly. But once you have practice your forms IMHO you can be very powerful.


MDC

[arakish]

  For extra limbs or strange creatures I generally rule that there is a time requirement to get used to the form and until you do you have penalties. So if you change into a bird you have to learn how to fly you do not automatically know how to fly. But once you have practice your forms IMHO you can be very powerful.


MDC

And this is something I have always ruled.  For a more dramatic example, if you change into a fish in water, you do not automatically know that breathing the water is OK.  You will go through a disorientation period of freaking out before you realize breathing water is OK.  Then you would require practice to swim like a fish which is side to side instead of up and down like a dolphin, whale, etc.

rmfr

[yammahoper]

And a vard orc would have four arms. (But you wouldn't get the coordination to take advantage of them, if the spell was only form-granting.)

For this reason, I'd allow having two arms in the new form, but still only one would be usable for any practical purposes. The character's brain no longer know how to operate the arm that's not supposed to be there, because of the missing nerves in his/her "real" body. But then I'd allow spell mastery to allow control over any new limb, or even rule differently if the spell success was beyond absolute.

I like this approach.  The replaced limb can still reveal the disguise if things go south but the magic makes the limb cuz it does as instructed, nut according to natural limitations (being magic).