Topic: A dragon spell resistance?

[Dr. Joe]

Sorry if this was asked before, but I couldn't find anything...

What do you translate "highly resistant to spells" into in terms of RR bonus for a dragon attacked with, say, a Lord Sleep spell (Must be a young dragon... )? In the books, I only found something like (Magical) Resistance in Talent Law, or the Spell Wall open essence list.

Similarly, any  kind of DB bonus vs. elemental attack spells (as they are "immune to natural elements")? Something like +10/+20 as in open essence Elemental Shields spells, possibly up to True Armor (well, for an old, maybe)?

Thanks!

[mocking bird]

Highly resistant to spells is taken into account with their high level that isn't necessarily reflected in their stats.

For immue to natural elements - we play that means they are immune to elemental attacks including void and mana.

[yammahoper]

In old Creatures and Treasures, it stated that dragons were highly resistant and recieved a +50 rr mod.  Now, the old book refers to a specific resistance, but I simply applied it to all of the dragons rr's.

Additionally, a dragon would have high stat mods in IN and Pr, probably Em too.  So if you assume a dragon has a +10 In mod, a +15 Em mod and a +20 Pr mod (add +5 for each age catagory), then base rr mods would be +80 versus chan, +95 versus Ess, and +110 versus ment.

Only Luck or an UM BAR roll will allow a spell user to overcome a dragons resistance, which may be why Gandalf noted dragons were best dealt with by heros, i.e. warriors.

[Dr. Joe]

Highly resistant to spells is taken into account with their high level that isn't necessarily reflected in their stats.

Ah, I didn't see that. Although it would mean that my young dragon may, with some luck, be put to sleep by a magician of similar level. That does seem a bit wimpy for a highly magical creature.

For immue to natural elements - we play that means they are immune to elemental attacks including void and mana.

This seems, OTOH, pretty strong. No fireball-throwing at dragons at all? Wow.  

[Dr. Joe]

In old Creatures and Treasures, it stated that dragons were highly resistant and recieved a +50 rr mod.  Now, the old book refers to a specific resistance, but I simply applied it to all of the dragons rr's.

Additionally, a dragon would have high stat mods in IN and Pr, probably Em too.  So if you assume a dragon has a +10 In mod, a +15 Em mod and a +20 Pr mod (add +5 for each age catagory), then base rr mods would be +80 versus chan, +95 versus Ess, and +110 versus ment.

Only Luck or an UM BAR roll will allow a spell user to overcome a dragons resistance, which may be why Gandalf noted dragons were best dealt with by heros, i.e. warriors.

RR stat bonuses, cool! Another thing I missed...How silly of me!

Though I'm not sure what you mean with specific resistance (I only have the new C&M or very old Creatures of ME)?

[Dr. Joe]

Oh, and do you do something like RR vs Fear or run?

[Ecthelion]

In old Creatures and Treasures, it stated that dragons were highly resistant and recieved a +50 rr mod.  Now, the old book refers to a specific resistance, but I simply applied it to all of the dragons rr's.

I took a look at the C&T from 1985 and did not find a reference to a +50 RR bonus, only the notion that dragons are "highly resistant to spell", which I thought was due to their high level. Could you tell me where exactly you found that +50 RR bonus?

[yammahoper]

Well, I could dig out my old materials...but no, to much like work pulling that old foot locker out.  Full of books, it weighs a ton.

So, perhaps I am simply wrong.  Not the first time    However, I do recall reading it...maybe a blurb on the old Arms Law blue manster tables???  An entry in a module?  Somewhere...at least, in my mind.  Ah, utopia.

[Arioch]

I've always interpreted "immune to natural elements" as: non magical versions of any element will not hurt a dragon (common fire, natural lightining, etc... cannot damage it). But mocking bird's intepretation could be right: in fact RMC C&T says that dragons are "immune to the elements" (with no restriction to "natural" elements!)
"Higly resistant to spells": unless they're very young Dragons are level 20+ creatures, so they'll probably resist most spells thrown against them. You could give them a racial bonus against all spells, like the racial bonuses of the Dwarves or other races... Also note that all dragons have access to "Dispelling Ways" to their level, which they can use to boost their magical defenses

[dutch206]

I beleive this person is referring to the "Full character stats for creatures" article in one of the later companions.  IIRC, number 6.

[Dr. Joe]

I've always interpreted "immune to natural elements" as: non magical versions of any element will not hurt a dragon (common fire, natural lightining, etc... cannot damage it). But mocking bird's intepretation could be right: in fact RMC C&T says that dragons are "immune to the elements" (with no restriction to "natural" elements!)

This is how I'd understand it, but it seemed a bit weak. But the RMC interpretation is a bit too formidable for me.

"Higly resistant to spells": unless they're very young Dragons are level 20+ creatures, so they'll probably resist most spells thrown against them. You could give them a racial bonus against all spells, like the racial bonuses of the Dwarves or other races... Also note that all dragons have access to "Dispelling Ways" to their level, which they can use to boost their magical defenses

My problem with Dispelling Ways is that they're all concentration spells, and I simply can't imagine a dragon in physical combat without some kind of natural protection (apart from its level) from the natural elements. This is why I though a natural capability similar to the Essence Shields spells would fit.

I beleive this person is referring to the "Full character stats for creatures" article in one of the later companions.  IIRC, number 6.

I have a lot of ICE stuff, but practically none of the RM2 series, so I can't look these up (Yes, waiting for ICE to produce PDFs from scans like for some of the old Shadow World modules...) 

Anyhow, thanks to all of you!
I think I'll go with the RR stat bonuses and throw in a natural resistance to the elements, based on age, like the Essence Shields spells (i.e., +10 for young, +20 for mature, and +20 plus critical reduction for old).

Going through the books, I bumped into one other (shadowy) issue: In SWMA 4 (and 3), there's a "Presence" (as in the Mentalist's Presence list?) range to be used to determine the range in which dragons naturally detect invisibility.Is it mentioned anywhere in the RM2 series that Dragons actually have this list by nature? Thinking of Smaug becoming aware of Bilbo, that would make a lot of sense to me.

Edit: The Presence spell from Essence Perceptions has a constant 20' range, which would make the detect invisible a 10' range. That seems good enough.

Again, thanks a lot for your input! 

[Arioch]

But the RMC interpretation is a bit too formidable for me.

Invulerability to elemental attack makes them really powerful... but Great Drakes are supposed to be formidable foes, killing one should be an epic task!

[pastaav]

In my game I run it like dragons magical resistance is included in its level...but that many spells are simiply unable to affect a dragon. The same applies to demons...these are beings that my the nature should be so alien that they can not be controlled by simple magic.

[munchy]

I think RMCVI (i.e. sixth companion of the old RM2 version) may have the dragon's stats, which in fact may include a racial bonus to RRs. I'll check.

[munchy]

In RMCVI a fire drake seems to have a racial bonus of +4 on all mental stats (Pr, In, Em) as on SD. Physical stats are even higher.
There was nothing on RR boni but my guess would be that they are pretty high.

HARP suggests a racial bonus of +50 to all resistance skills for a fire dragon.

[Dr. Joe]

In RMCVI a fire drake seems to have a racial bonus of +4 on all mental stats (Pr, In, Em) as on SD. Physical stats are even higher.
There was nothing on RR boni but my guess would be that they are pretty high.

HARP suggests a racial bonus of +50 to all resistance skills for a fire dragon.

Thanks for looking this up!

On second thought, I think that saying the RRs are already included in the level is a bit unfair towards dragons! 
After all, they are much like characters, and they profit both from stats and their level. A racial bonus of +4 would normally  translate into +12 RR, which sounds good enough for a young dragon to me. And adding some fraction of the +50, depending on age, gives me just the right amount flexibility.

In my game I run it like dragons magical resistance is included in its level...but that many spells are simiply unable to affect a dragon. The same applies to demons...these are beings that my the nature should be so alien that they can not be controlled by simple magic.

Like no elemental magic (or even all essence) works on dragons? Also, no mentalism spells because of the alien nature of dragon minds? But channeling is a bit easier as that power is derived from deities?

Again, thanks for all your input! 

[rdanhenry]

Dragons actually seem a bit weak for their level when you consider how huge their stat bonuses would have to be. I think one has to assume they do not advance like human(oid) characters.

I would allow a bonus to RR based on stat bonuses and the bonus for using the same realm against Essence. Also, any defensive magic will probably be employed, unless the dragon is careless enough to be caught unawares.

As for elemental attacks, dragons have excellent armor and good DBs, access to Spell Reins and Dispelling Ways, and take Super Large (or Large for the younger ones) crits. It takes a "D" crit to hurt a Super Large target, making many elemental attacks ineffective against older dragons. I'd only give flat out immunity to the element that the dragon breathes. Hurting a dragon with *anything* is already fairly difficult even if the dragon simply employs brute force measures in its defense (and they should be cunning, instead).

As for invisibility, dragons need no special "detect invisible" power. They have keen senses of hearing and smell and their memory for the condition of their hordes is legendary. A scout need merely have put one coin out of place to raise suspicion.

[Dax]

Nice summary, rdanhenry.

But I like to play devil's advocat:

As for invisibility, dragons need no special "detect invisible" power. They have keen senses of hearing and smell

What about No Sense spells ? (OK, power creeping ...)

and their memory for the condition of their hordes is legendary. A scout need merely have put one coin out of place to raise suspicion.

So you think, dragons aren't touching their pillow of gold coins when they are moving ?

[rdanhenry]

If you are invisible, have no odor, make no sound, and disturb nothing, I see no reason why the dragon should know that you are there. I know of no story that suggests otherwise. (Bilbo, for example, is smelled and he disturbed the treasure... I think he did make his Stalking roll, though.)

A dragon knows which coins he moved. A dragon invests heavily in Situational Awareness: Treasure Hoard.

[mocking bird]

This seems, OTOH, pretty strong. No fireball-throwing at dragons at all? Wow. 

Yes, yes it does and it certainly strikes fear into the spell casters.  Strangely enough fighters are best suited to fight dragons instead of spell casters.

We did however rule that dragons are susceptible to impact criticals.

If you are invisible, have no odor, make no sound, and disturb nothing, I see no reason why the dragon should know that you are there. I know of no story that suggests otherwise. (Bilbo, for example, is smelled and he disturbed the treasure... I think he did make his Stalking roll, though.)

Except dragons also have essence perceptions which includes presence - the bane of all GM's attempting to be sneaky.