Topic: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?

[jdale]

Personally I have a mix of RMSS and RMFRP stuff. It's pretty much interchangeable. You don't really need for example RMSS Spell Law and also the three RMFRP Of Essence/Channeling/Mentalism books, but the companions either one will do. I have no idea of the relative sales.

School of Hard Knocks is useful even if you do have RMSS, there is a lot more information on each skill in SoHK. Working on bringing that detail to RMU too.

I do have a hardback RMSS Spell Law.

The forum has definitely been wonky lately.

[pastaav]

I know it’s hard to say without any insider information, but which do you think sold better? RMSS or RMFRP?

I think it is hard to compare. RMSS had undisturbed sales for a couple of years, while RMFRP came out just before old Ironcrown ran into legal problems due to the Merp license. Some of the Companion books came out in the months before Ironcrown shut down. Some were not released until after Ironcrown restarted in 2001. Essential books like the revised Mentalism Companion did not come out until 2003 if I recall correctly. On top of that all the sales channels was disturbed so the exposure in stores was much more limited for the new Ironcrown.

Do you think those who fully invested in RMSS even bothered with RMFRP because it was essentially the same game?

I can only speak for myself, but I own both RMSS and RMFRP.

[chook]

Totally unrelated: I’m often getting this message when I try to log on:

Service Unavailable

The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later.

Additionally, a 503 Service Unavailable error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

Sometimes it will be like that for days. So, sorry for my slow replies!

I've been getting that intermittently too. I am wondering if it is because I am travelling and thus accessing the WWW through public access sometimes?

No I have been getting it intermittently from my normal connection that then comes back and works.  The HTTP 503 code normally indicates that there is either a capacity issue with the server or that one of the services is down.  Apologies if you already knew that but I try not to presume everyone on the Web knows how computers work anymore.

[dead]

School of Hard Knocks is useful even if you do have RMSS, there is a lot more information on each skill in SoHK. Working on bringing that detail to RMU too.

I don't think School of Hard Knocks was considered a "core" book in the RMFRP line. How essential is it? If I get RMFRP books to have the latest, I was going to grab these:

Core Rulebook
Arms Law
Creatures & Monsters
Spell Law ...of Channeling
Spell Law ...of Essence
Spell Law ...of Mentalism
Character Law
Gamemaster Law
Treasure Companion

All of those were considered "core" products except for Treasure Companion but I thought that might be good for magic items.

[dead]

No I have been getting it intermittently from my normal connection that then comes back and works.  The HTTP 503 code normally indicates that there is either a capacity issue with the server or that one of the services is down.  Apologies if you already knew that but I try not to presume everyone on the Web knows how computers work anymore.

I've been locked out the last couple of days. Just managed to get back on!

[Cory Magel]

Long before this forum, there existed an email list that everyone who played Rolemaster participated in. I joined it during the later part of the RM2 period. Many of the veterans on this forum, including the current line editor for Rolemaster, did participate on that email list when the concept of WWW was brand new. You will be hard pressed to come up with questions unknown by this crowd.

I was also there, in the olden days, under a different alias. And my handiwork can be found in one of those early Rolemaster newsletter/journals that all but time has forgotten (and I refuse to look at because of the atrocious language that only faintly resembles English).

Ha! I'd forgotten about that. I don't recall if I was using my real name as my handle back then or not.

[Cory Magel]

Do you think those who fully invested in RMSS even bothered with RMFRP because it was essentially the same game?

We used RM2 how RM was originally invented, as an add on to other RPG's. We'd played D&D since the early 80's and re-written a lot of D&D 2nd Ed ourselves, implementing some RM spell lists and critical tables.  We were looking to fully switch systems after getting tried of trying to fix what we didn't like in D&D, so we moved to MERP.  After one campaign in MERP we decided to give fully into RM and that's when RMSS was coming out. As Wolfwood said, it was simply better organized and balanced that the older versions of RM.  So... I have loads of RM stuff all the way back, but RMSS is what we will still use. RMFRP was mostly just reprints of what came before. There were a small number of original books we picked up though.

[pastaav]

I don't think School of Hard Knocks was considered a "core" book in the RMFRP line. How essential is it? If I get RMFRP books to have the latest, I was going to grab these:

It is part of the core, but like with much of RMFRP, you can choose to do without it. For instance, the rule option from RMSS about alternating third stat for skills only exists in the School of Hard Knocks, but nothing says you must use this rule. Another point worth mentioning is that School of Hard Knocks is the book that finally fixed the Stun Removal/Stunned Maneuvering weirdness that exists in previous editions. Another benefit of the book is that you get the professions Barbarian, Outrider, Sage, and Swashbuckler. Personally, I have only used Outrider and Sage at my gaming table, but all in all, it is a very good book.

JDale mentioned that even if you go with RMSS, you might want to pick up the School of Hard Knocks book. That recommendation should hint a fair bit at how central the book is.

If your budget is tight, I would suggest you ignore Treasure Companion. None of your players will mind if you come up with arbitrary magic items, and they are bound to be better balanced than if you follow the rules in Treasure Companion.

[dead]

If your budget is tight, I would suggest you ignore Treasure Companion. None of your players will mind if you come up with arbitrary magic items, and they are bound to be better balanced than if you follow the rules in Treasure Companion.

Oh, thanks for the advice! I thought Treasure Companion might have pre-made magic items in it. Like the D&D Dungeon Master's Guide has magic items in the back. Sounds like it might be more of a magic item creation toolset.

[netbat]

I will echo everyone else that SoHK really helps flesh out RMSS/RMFRP and has some great material. I did think the RMFRP talents were better balanced than RMSS talent law, but I never saw the need to use the RMFRP version of anything I already had the RMSS equivalent for even if they were a bit clearer and better organized. Not enough of a difference to make it worthwhile.

For instance, the rule option from RMSS about alternating third stat for skills only exists in the School of Hard Knocks, but nothing says you must use this rule.

This was just a slightly better written version of the optional rule from RMSS. See RMSS section A9.2. The example is verbatim from RMSS.

[pastaav]

If your budget is tight, I would suggest you ignore Treasure Companion. None of your players will mind if you come up with arbitrary magic items, and they are bound to be better balanced than if you follow the rules in Treasure Companion.

Oh, thanks for the advice! I thought Treasure Companion might have pre-made magic items in it. Like the D&D Dungeon Master's Guide has magic items in the back. Sounds like it might be more of a magic item creation toolset.

There are lots of premade magic items, but the creation rules used to create them are flawed. I say this based on the fact that I had a campaign with an Alchemist player, and this made us really use the rules extensively. Too many years have passed for me to recall all the details, but our conclusion was that nobody must have playtested the creation rules because they did not make sense at all.

[dead]

Thanks for all the feedback, folks. The RMSS line of books have 3-hole punches in them. Did anyone actually put their copies in a 3-ring-binder? And, if so, did you just put the books in whole, or did you pull your books apart so you had loose-leaf pages?

[Hurin]

Another point worth mentioning is that School of Hard Knocks is the book that finally fixed the Stun Removal/Stunned Maneuvering weirdness that exists in previous editions.

Was it broken in previous editions? Can you explain how you think SoHK 'fixed' it?

[jdale]

Thanks for all the feedback, folks. The RMSS line of books have 3-hole punches in them. Did anyone actually put their copies in a 3-ring-binder?

Nope. But we did copy the relevant pages and put them in folders for each character, and also I copied all the character-making content and reorganized it in a folder (e.g. every TP from every book, every profession from every book), and similarly I have notebooks with the spell lists from each realm (with the content from every book). RMSS is laid out well as a book to reference once you already know how to play, so those pages extract well for that purpose.

[pastaav]

Another point worth mentioning is that School of Hard Knocks is the book that finally fixed the Stun Removal/Stunned Maneuvering weirdness that exists in previous editions.

Was it broken in previous editions? Can you explain how you think SoHK 'fixed' it?

If you dig around the Icewebring there is bound to be an discussion about the different wordings of these skills in different RM editions. The gist of it is that one of the RM2 companions changed the mechanics and when RMSS was written they did not realize they were pulling defintion from the companion. RMFRP resolved the matter by having two skills with more matching mechanics to the names of the skills. Nothing wrong with playing with RMSS definition of the skill, but I think the RMFRP version of the skill is less weird.

[Hurin]

Another point worth mentioning is that School of Hard Knocks is the book that finally fixed the Stun Removal/Stunned Maneuvering weirdness that exists in previous editions.

Was it broken in previous editions? Can you explain how you think SoHK 'fixed' it?

If you dig around the Icewebring there is bound to be an discussion about the different wordings of these skills in different RM editions. The gist of it is that one of the RM2 companions changed the mechanics and when RMSS was written they did not realize they were pulling defintion from the companion. RMFRP resolved the matter by having two skills with more matching mechanics to the names of the skills. Nothing wrong with playing with RMSS definition of the skill, but I think the RMFRP version of the skill is less weird.

Ok, so by 'previous editions' you mean just RMSS? The skill didn't exist in RM1, and was first introduced in Companion 2, and seemed to work as intended in RM2. I don't know what weirdness was introduced in RMSS (I never played it), but if there was a problem with it being weird in 'previous editions', then I guess that means just RMSS?

[jdale]

To be more specific, RMSS has Stunned Maneuvering, a skill that removes rounds of stun. In the previous edition, the skill for removing rounds of stun was called Stun Removal, while Stunned Maneuvering was for mitigating penalties without actually removing stun (i.e., for maneuvering while stunned). RMFRP has Stun Removal which removes stun, with the same mechanics as RMSS's Stunned Maneuvering. School of Hard Knocks has Stun Removal as per RMFRP, plus a Stunned Maneuvering skill which mitigates penalties.

I don't know that having two completely different skills for the same basic thing is actually the best solution but it's really very much in the spirit of RMSS/RMFRP.

[Hurin]

To be more specific, RMSS has Stunned Maneuvering, a skill that removes rounds of stun. In the previous edition, the skill for removing rounds of stun was called Stun Removal, while Stunned Maneuvering was for mitigating penalties without actually removing stun (i.e., for maneuvering while stunned). RMFRP has Stun Removal which removes stun, with the same mechanics as RMSS's Stunned Maneuvering. School of Hard Knocks has Stun Removal as per RMFRP, plus a Stunned Maneuvering skill which mitigates penalties.

Thanks for the explanation, though I'm still a little confused. The 'previous edition' to RMSS was RM2, and I don't recall any 'Stun Removal' skill in it; there was just Stunned Maneuvering. I looked at RMSS, and it has only 'Stunned Maneuvering' (just with a different mechanic where it actually removes rounds of stun). Then I looked at RMFRP and in Character Law the skill is still called 'Stunned Maneuvering' but seems to revert to the RM2 mechanic (bonus to acting while stunned instead of actually removing rounds of stun). And then, as you say, SoHK lists two different skills with two different mechanics ('Stunned Maneuvering' uses the RM2 mechanic while 'Stun Removal' uses the RMSS mechanic even though the skill that used that mechanic in RMSS had the old RM2 name).

That is indeed a mess, but to say that it existed in 'previous editions' is not entirely accurate. RM2 had only one skill, and that skill had a consistent description. The problem was not introduced until RMSS/FRP.

[EltonJ]

No game is perfect, Hurin.

[jdale]

Well, I don't know. Here's what John Curtis III said:

"Somewhere along the way, the definition of Stunned Maneuvering got lost. Originally, you used
Stunned Maneuvering to "maneuver while stunned"... that means that the skill allowed you to get
out of the battle, retreat, or otherwise crawl around while stunned.
Thanks to great editing, this definition was changed in RM Companion II (what a thing to slip
through the cracks). Suddenly, you got to use Stunned Maneuvering to "remove" rounds of stun!
When I pointed this out to the managing editor, he was appalled! Well, long story becomes short...
In the RMFRP there are now two skills: Stun Removal (see the RMFRP, page 125) and Stunned
Maneuvering (see the upcoming Character Law). Now we can all be happy...

But that doesn't quite square with the actual text in RoCo2. Maybe text was changed in some printing.