Author Topic: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?  (Read 11705 times)

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Offline dead

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Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« on: August 12, 2024, 05:02:26 AM »
I'm new to Rolemaster and have been collecting a lot of the old books. I've picked up all of the 2E Rolemaster and Shadow World books that were on my list and I'm now taking a look at either RMSS or RMFRP.

I know RMSS and RMFRP are essentially the same and you can mix and match but for the purposes of my collection I'm just going to grab the books from only one of these lines.

I've heard RMFRP was poorly organised. I'm assuming this is because they attempted to do an "all-in-one" book and this messed with how it interlocks with the other books. Where as, it sounds like RMSS started from the outset to produce a comprehensive and complete game that would always require multiple titles to be playable. Is that a fair assessment?

So... I'm thinking RMSS sounds like the product line to focus on from a collecting point of view (I'll probably never get to play the game, alas). Would that be sound judgement?

And... why was it called the Standard System? I felt that was an odd name. It implies there's a non-Standard system out there.

And, why was RMFRP released only 4 years after? Was ICE struggling to get folks to buy in to a system that required many books to be playable and thought they better produce an "all-in-one" book?

Is that a problem that exists to this day with RMU?

Thank you!

Offline Wolfwood

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2024, 10:12:52 AM »
Speaking from only a random GM's perspective, RM2 had become a chaotic mess with various companion books introducing, for example, overpowered professions and spell lists and a whole lot of optional rules. IMHO, RMSS attempted to standardise everything and rebalance the system as a whole.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2024, 05:02:44 PM »
And "New Rolemaster" was out of the question after "New Coke".
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2024, 10:12:59 AM »
And "New Rolemaster" was out of the question after "New Coke".
Could have been called "RM-Neo" or something similar, to keep with the trendy names :-/

Offline dead

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2024, 07:53:23 AM »
I understand the original ICE was bought out by another party.

Do any of the original ICE authors (from the original ICE before it was bought out) work on the new RMU edition?

Offline B Hanson

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2024, 09:28:30 AM »
I understand the original ICE was bought out by another party.

Do any of the original ICE authors (from the original ICE before it was bought out) work on the new RMU edition?


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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2024, 10:13:15 AM »
I understand the original ICE was bought out by another party.

Do any of the original ICE authors (from the original ICE before it was bought out) work on the new RMU edition?

If you're talking about the initial shutdown/buyout of ICE, that would've been in the 2000-2002 timeframe. Prior to that, an "original" ICE author could be anyone who worked on the three different systems (RM, RMSS, RMFRP), though not consistently, as there were quite a few personnel changes/reductions along the way. Only a core group of people were around for essentially the whole run of the "original" ICE, namely Coleman Charlton, Pete Fenlon, Heike Kubasch, Bruce Neidlinger, and Jessica Ney-Grimm.

As far as I can tell, the only person with a current RMU credit who also worked on ICE products before that initial shutdown/buyout is Nick Morawitz. He was there from 1993-1997 doing editing/layout, initially working on Space Master Companion II, Sea Law, and Arabian Nights, and continuing most of the way through the RMSS series. If you're asking about an actual "author," though, there isn't anyone.

Offline nash

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2024, 12:11:38 PM »
The next version of this thread in a decade or so will be super funny.

Offline dead

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2024, 05:51:54 PM »
If you're talking about the initial shutdown/buyout of ICE, that would've been in the 2000-2002 timeframe. Prior to that, an "original" ICE author could be anyone who worked on the three different systems (RM, RMSS, RMFRP), though not consistently, as there were quite a few personnel changes/reductions along the way. Only a core group of people were around for essentially the whole run of the "original" ICE, namely Coleman Charlton, Pete Fenlon, Heike Kubasch, Bruce Neidlinger, and Jessica Ney-Grimm.

As far as I can tell, the only person with a current RMU credit who also worked on ICE products before that initial shutdown/buyout is Nick Morawitz. He was there from 1993-1997 doing editing/layout, initially working on Space Master Companion II, Sea Law, and Arabian Nights, and continuing most of the way through the RMSS series. If you're asking about an actual "author," though, there isn't anyone.

Thanks for the info. I was just wondering if any of the "old school" were around that knew some of the past history. That side of things interests me a lot.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2024, 05:32:27 AM »
If you're talking about the initial shutdown/buyout of ICE, that would've been in the 2000-2002 timeframe. Prior to that, an "original" ICE author could be anyone who worked on the three different systems (RM, RMSS, RMFRP), though not consistently, as there were quite a few personnel changes/reductions along the way. Only a core group of people were around for essentially the whole run of the "original" ICE, namely Coleman Charlton, Pete Fenlon, Heike Kubasch, Bruce Neidlinger, and Jessica Ney-Grimm.

It, of course, depends on the perspective, but Heike Kubasch and Bruce Neidlinger were part of the Mjolnir company that took over after the original Ironcrown. These two stayed long after Coleman Charlton and Pete Fenlon had left. Nicholas Caldwell, the current director of Ironcrown, worked with Mjolnir for about ten years and wrote many of the best supplements that were released during this period. Another person worth mentioning is Terry K Amthor, who, until his untimely death, worked with the current Ironcrown but, before that, was a freelancer for the original Ironcrown.

As for the original question in the thread. RM2 was a mess of options and supplements that lacked any effort to create a balance. RMSS was a new edition where Ironcrown (a bit arbitrary) made a coherent decision of what options from RM2 could play nicely together. The goal was to make an edition that could support play in any era so you could have supplements about Firearms, Pulp etc so you had a standard system of roleplaying. In the end, just about everyone played fantasy with RMSS, so the nonfantasy supplements had bad sales. Spacemaster also still needed to be each own game so the standardization effort was IMHO mostly wasted.

RMFRP is literally the same game as RMSS but aimed at doing just fantasy. The organization of RMFRP takes some effort to get used to...the main book only includes part of the rules, and for instance, you need the School of Hard Knocks supplement to get the full skill descriptions. The main professions are split between RMFRP and Character Law. As a veteran user of RMFRP and RMSS, I think that RMFRP performs better at the gaming table when you have learned the organization. With RMFRP, there are fewer cases when more players need to have the same book; when I supplement my current RMU game, I am exclusively using RMFRP books.

If we turn to RMU that is the first Rolemaster edition that has a consistent way to enforce balance between professions, weapons and different options. Basically, there was a massive effort made by the designers of RMU to formulate hard rules to recreate the flavor Rolemaster without all the imbalances introduced into the game during the RM1 and RM2 periods. In the previous edition, you ultimatievly depended on the rule of thumb from the designers to keep balance, but it was never done in a consistent way. When you evaluate the old editions with new rules you find lots of differences.

We are with RMU back, with everyone needing to access that one book with rules, but with all the improvements in the rules, I couldn't imagine switching back.
/Pa Staav

Offline pastaav

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2024, 05:46:22 AM »
Thanks for the info. I was just wondering if any of the "old school" were around that knew some of the past history. That side of things interests me a lot.

Long before this forum, there existed an email list that everyone who played Rolemaster participated in. I joined it during the later part of the RM2 period. Many of the veterans on this forum, including the current line editor for Rolemaster, did participate on that email list when the concept of WWW was brand new. You will be hard pressed to come up with questions unknown by this crowd.
/Pa Staav

Offline Wolfwood

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2024, 08:42:54 AM »
Long before this forum, there existed an email list that everyone who played Rolemaster participated in. I joined it during the later part of the RM2 period. Many of the veterans on this forum, including the current line editor for Rolemaster, did participate on that email list when the concept of WWW was brand new. You will be hard pressed to come up with questions unknown by this crowd.
I was also there, in the olden days, under a different alias. And my handiwork can be found in one of those early Rolemaster newsletter/journals that all but time has forgotten (and I refuse to look at because of the atrocious language that only faintly resembles English).

Offline jdale

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2024, 11:20:08 AM »
Nick Morawitz knows many of the original authors (worked with them, gamed with them). If you want stories from the beginning, he's the one to ask. He's usually at GenCon if you stop by the booth. He did introduce me to Pete Fenlon, but Pete is now busy running Catan Studios (e.g. Settlers of Catan) and is pretty tough to pin down for more than a round or two.

As Pastaav said, I was on the email list in the 90's, which is when I was in grad school. Still have some of those emails archived. I don't remember Pete ever posting on it (maybe before me?) except when ICE went into bankruptcy. Bruce and Heike did occasionally, Tim Dugger was more of a regular. John Curtis III gave rulings on the RMSS rules.
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Offline chook

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2024, 05:04:57 AM »
Another person worth mentioning is Terry K Amthor, who, until his untimely death, worked with the current Ironcrown but, before that, was a freelancer for the original Ironcrown.
Happy to be corrected myself here but I think TKA was one of the original founders and not just a freelancer.  Unsure if he was an employee but pretty confident he was a founder and in fact was gaming with the others at university.

Offline dead

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2024, 06:55:11 AM »
As for the original question in the thread. RM2 was a mess of options and supplements that lacked any effort to create a balance. RMSS was a new edition where Ironcrown (a bit arbitrary) made a coherent decision of what options from RM2 could play nicely together. The goal was to make an edition that could support play in any era so you could have supplements about Firearms, Pulp etc so you had a standard system of roleplaying. In the end, just about everyone played fantasy with RMSS, so the nonfantasy supplements had bad sales. Spacemaster also still needed to be each own game so the standardization effort was IMHO mostly wasted.

RMFRP is literally the same game as RMSS but aimed at doing just fantasy. The organization of RMFRP takes some effort to get used to...the main book only includes part of the rules, and for instance, you need the School of Hard Knocks supplement to get the full skill descriptions. The main professions are split between RMFRP and Character Law. As a veteran user of RMFRP and RMSS, I think that RMFRP performs better at the gaming table when you have learned the organization. With RMFRP, there are fewer cases when more players need to have the same book; when I supplement my current RMU game, I am exclusively using RMFRP books.

Thanks for the run down! That’s very interesting and just the feedback I was looking for. I can better see why it was called the "Standard System", now. Interestingly, Spacemaster didn’t get an edition update in the RMSS era (c. 1995), either.

Weirdly, I've discovered ICE did some hardcover versions of RMSS core books in 2006. These must have been some commemorative special edition reprints in hardcover for the hardcore fans.

You mention School of Hard Knocks has all the skill descriptions for RMFRP, does RMSS has a comparable book in its product line? Is this Talent Law?

The wiki entry for Rolemaster says the creators were: Coleman Charlton, John Curtis, Pete Fenlon and Steve Marvin. Did they move on to other RPGs? Or just disappear from the industry? Did they stay a part of the community? For example, Gary Gygax moved on from D&D but he was always around (before his passing) and would answer questions from the community (mostly he’d like to talk about his current projects but sometimes he would field questions about his previous works.)

The only Rolemaster author I know - but he was probably just a freelancer - is Monte Cook who did some monster books. And he went on to work on D&D 3E and then Cypher System.

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Totally unrelated: I’m often getting this message when I try to log on:

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Sometimes it will be like that for days. So, sorry for my slow replies!

Offline dead

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2024, 07:05:42 AM »
Nick Morawitz knows many of the original authors (worked with them, gamed with them). If you want stories from the beginning, he's the one to ask. He's usually at GenCon if you stop by the booth. He did introduce me to Pete Fenlon, but Pete is now busy running Catan Studios (e.g. Settlers of Catan) and is pretty tough to pin down for more than a round or two.

As Pastaav said, I was on the email list in the 90's, which is when I was in grad school. Still have some of those emails archived. I don't remember Pete ever posting on it (maybe before me?) except when ICE went into bankruptcy. Bruce and Heike did occasionally, Tim Dugger was more of a regular. John Curtis III gave rulings on the RMSS rules.

Thanks for the info. Oh, yep, Pete Fenlon is mentioned in the wiki as one of the creators... So he went on to boardgames. Interesting.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2024, 10:21:27 AM »
Another person worth mentioning is Terry K Amthor, who, until his untimely death, worked with the current Ironcrown but, before that, was a freelancer for the original Ironcrown.
Happy to be corrected myself here but I think TKA was one of the original founders and not just a freelancer.  Unsure if he was an employee but pretty confident he was a founder and in fact was gaming with the others at university.

He was one of the founders...but left Ironcrown to become a freelancer. If I recall correctly, TKA worked on Spell Law mostly but switched his attention to Shadow World. I don't think he did any real work on RMSS.
/Pa Staav

Offline pastaav

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2024, 10:48:48 AM »
You mention School of Hard Knocks has all the skill descriptions for RMFRP, does RMSS has a comparable book in its product line? Is this Talent Law?

No, the skill descriptions exist mostly in the core RMSS book. The material from Talent Law was included as a part of RMFRP Character Law. This book also has the races, professions and categories that were missing from RMFRP. As an example RMSS has skill categories for martial arts, but was not part of the main RMFRP book but saved for Characer Law (for some reason).

It is worth to mention that RMU contained revised talents and flaws that IMHO are much better balanced than old Talent Law/Character Law from the RMSS/RMFRP era.   

The wiki entry for Rolemaster says the creators were: Coleman Charlton, John Curtis, Pete Fenlon and Steve Marvin. Did they move on to other RPGs?

Coleman Charlton also followed Fenlon to the Catan business. As for John Curtis, he left Ironcrown due to personal reasons and I think he quit the industry totally.

After Curtis left, Craig O'Brien served as line editor for Rolemaster for a while, but I think he plays D&D these days and has no connection to Rolemaster.
/Pa Staav

Offline Hurin

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2024, 12:31:54 PM »
Totally unrelated: I’m often getting this message when I try to log on:

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Additionally, a 503 Service Unavailable error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


Sometimes it will be like that for days. So, sorry for my slow replies!

I've been getting that intermittently too. I am wondering if it is because I am travelling and thus accessing the WWW through public access sometimes?
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Offline dead

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Re: Why was it called Rolemaster Standard Edition?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2024, 06:30:55 AM »
No, the skill descriptions exist mostly in the core RMSS book. The material from Talent Law was included as a part of RMFRP Character Law. This book also has the races, professions and categories that were missing from RMFRP. As an example RMSS has skill categories for martial arts, but was not part of the main RMFRP book but saved for Characer Law (for some reason).

Oh, I see. Thanks.

I know it’s hard to say without any insider information, but which do you think sold better? RMSS or RMFRP?

Do you think those who fully invested in RMSS even bothered with RMFRP because it was essentially the same game?