Author Topic: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card  (Read 4812 times)

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Offline MarnsFist

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Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« on: August 20, 2022, 02:48:52 PM »
I've been playing around with the idea for a RM Creature and Opponent Stat Card for my campaigns. I get tired of having to reference the damn book/PDF all the time. Besides, plenty of other RPG's have them, I wondered why the heck not RoleMaster.

So, for my own use, I took it upon myself to transfer 90% of the creature stat table entries(*) in C&T III in to a database, correcting various inaccuracies along the way.  Then, using that data, I've been playing around with a format for those cards using LibreOffice's Draw as a way to template the layouts.  Simply to test the process, I've already used NanDeck to pull the data in and create very basic "proof-of-concept" cards, which does work.

I would appreciate your thoughts on my first decent layout given these creation parameters:
  • Reduce as much as possible the use of condensing Codes and Special Characters.  All codes can't be removed (like the Hit 'Level Code'), just the ones that can.
  • The card is "6.15 x 3.73" inches, with size being determinant on eventually printing 3 cards per  '8.5x11' page; (2 horizontal, 1 vertical). Plus, at this size, Legal (8.5" x 14") sized paper printing could be possible too for four per page (cards could be slightly wider).
  • The font was chosen for legibility ('Atkinson Hyperlegible'), it's slash zero, and the differences between '1', 'l' and 'I' (Numeral 1, lowercase L, Capital I). I do wish it was proportional though.
  • The data and textual descriptions shown in the image comes from the database. Textual description (for things like Attack interpretation) were generated by another program I wrote to read and describe those attacks. Specifically, the exact data show was chosen for it's display size.
  • The graphic was generated by Dall-E (last night).  It's not 100% correct, but any guesses as to what creature I was trying for from C&TIII?
  • It's all B/W for several reasons.  1) I have crap artistic skills, and 2) it fits the B/W theme of most RoleMaster products.
What would you change or add?  Options I'm considering are:
  • Dropping the description or leaving just a bare sketch of it. This would allow a lot more room for important information.
  • Adding a Section to describe the Special Attacks.
  • Adding a Climate Section.  I've only got 50% of the climate codes transferred, but my interpretation program does work to generate text descriptions for the various climate and Environment codes.
  • Maybe decipher the Treasure Codes into simple textual description.

External Link to Image: https://imgur.com/a/1glGcZJ
If you want to play around with the layout yourself, just shoot me a message and I'll send the Draw file.
(*) I skipped a few like 'Carnivorous Mammals' and 'Riding and Draft Animals'.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2022, 03:13:47 PM »
That looks good, and I'm sure it was a lot of work!

FWIW, I think RMU will have a new stat block that might serve a similar purpose.
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Offline MarnsFist

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Re: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2022, 05:32:12 PM »
Thank you for the kind words.  It took some time, but I have good tools and I've done a fair bit of recovery work like this before. Besides, it keeps my RegEx skills in tip-top shape after a project like this, and that's never a bad thing. :D

As far as RMu goes, I'm glad it has a Stat Block, even though they do take up more space than the condensed versions in the past. Honestly, I'm not sure a modern gamer would look past those cryptic codes and ever try the system if it hadn't changed.  When I contemplated this project, I looked a the preview of "HARP Bestiary" at DriveThruRPG, hoping to see a vision of the future.  They did good work for the product, and while I'm not a HARP gamer, I'd be tempted to get it just to support the company.  That said, lets just hope RMU's stat block is better than the HARP one.  Without doubt the HARP Bestiary version is clean and miles ahead of anything RM had in the past. Unfortunately, for me, I was aghast at the long lines under each stat value; I guess I felt it made them unfinished and slap-dash.

But as the old saying goes "Never look a gift horse in the mouth", and I'm glad we have (at least the hope) of something better than those cryptic tables.

Finally, it looks like WoTC (with their new Vecna Stat-Block preview) has ditched the picture on the card completely.  Certainly leaves more room for things, and allows the text be larger and more legible.  That's the nice thing about the DB hookup for these personal use cards; I can easily change my mind on design whenever I want.

Offline jdale

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Re: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2022, 08:03:52 PM »
Given the number of creatures being packed into just two books, the listings are still pretty compact in RMU CrL, and there are tables by section rather than per creature. Personally I would prefer a longer stat block per creature but we'd be looking at a twelve volume set. Cards aren't a bad approach. If there was demand, it would be easier to produce them for RMU than for previous editions given the format that the raw data is in.
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Offline Majyk

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Re: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2022, 12:05:03 AM »
Edit wise, change “loose” to “lose”

Some upper “stats” can be combined in a single line like Attack and Move Speed descriptions separated with a “/“.

Otherwise, this has been a dream of mine as well= nice work!

Offline MisterK

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Re: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2022, 12:40:26 AM »
Nice work. However, I have a question about the intended use : is it supposed to be a combat card, or a general purpose card ?

Because I can't see the need for a GP card - I mean, there's time to peruse the actual book when preparing a session, you don't really need cards for that. OTOH, having the database itself might be more useful than flipping through the pages of the various C&Ts. And you're probably missing information for that since the old C&Ts were notoriously spotty on some details (compared to, say, such books as the original IK Monsternomicon).

However, if it is a Combat Help card, then the fluff text is not needed - what is needed is a text explaining the overall demeanor (aggressive, cautious...), the attack modes and typical behaviour in conflict, but that's all. An illustration would probably be useful, but mostly to highlight the general form and size of the creature - so having a top view and side view with a scale would probably be more helpful. And that could make for a smaller card, which is interesting since space behind he GM screen is at a premium.

I realise that doing this requires much more effort and probably also requires professional-level illustration skills, and as such is out of scope of your work... but I'm taking the opportunity to share my thoughts on the general topic :)

Offline MarnsFist

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Re: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2022, 12:01:28 PM »
Given the number of creatures being packed into just two books, the listings are still pretty compact in RMU CrL, and there are tables by section rather than per creature. Personally I would prefer a longer stat block per creature but we'd be looking at a twelve volume set. Cards aren't a bad approach. If there was demand, it would be easier to produce them for RMU than for previous editions given the format that the raw data is in.
That's an uncomfortable real-world dilemma, and I really feel for 'ya.  Those costs are nothing to take lightly. I signed up for the "Tome of Beasts III" (from Kobold Press) and the Kickstarter backer reduced price was nearly $50.  I'd bet the non-Preorder price will be every bit of $60! (ouch)

A far as Cards go, I personally love the ability to have a few cards for a gaming session, rather than having to keep referencing the book/PDF.  It's immediate in a way that compliments my refereeing, and I think my players recognize and appreciate it. As to whether or not other GMs find that true or not, I can't say. Determining what goes on those cards though and the arrangement... =D

I will say having gone through C&TIII like I have, the process of having to 'regularize" the data was eye-opening. I think of it as much stricter level of editorial review. ;D  By that I mean it really highlights any lexical irregularities in the way that data is arranged. "10We" and "1OWe" immediately stand out in parsing, as does something like "30MB" when it meant "30MBa" or "30ba".  Similarly, "100LGr«/Special". As written it's completely unorthodox in it's interpretation; should it have been "100LGr/Special«", or something else?  I can't imagine that finding that kind of stuff early wouldn't help enormously.

Best of luck to you all!

Offline MarnsFist

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Re: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2022, 12:24:04 PM »
Edit wise, change “loose” to “lose”
LOL... are you an editor in the real world? ;)  (but I did change it).

Some upper “stats” can be combined in a single line like Attack and Move Speed descriptions separated with a “/“.
Otherwise, this has been a dream of mine as well= nice work!
Thank you very much, and you have excellent points.  I guess the dilemma will be down to how much am I trying to reduce condensation (and expand clarity), and how well I can do that given limited space.  Personally, I like having Attack speed closer to the Attacks, since it deals with how quickly the attack can happen. Maybe I'm shortchanging myself, but if it was listed in the Movement "section" I suspect I'd overlook/forget about it.  But you are absolutely right, in that that decision has a cost in space which might be put to better use (larger fonts, etc..).

Offline jdale

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Re: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2022, 01:23:21 PM »
Supposing the book exists as I described... would it be worth also having a more detailed presentation of a smaller set of creatures? Either cards or maybe a one-page treatment for each creature that might talk about tactics etc too?
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Offline MarnsFist

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Re: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2022, 01:30:46 PM »
Nice work. However, I have a question about the intended use : is it supposed to be a combat card, or a general purpose card ?

Because I can't see the need for a GP card - I mean, there's time to peruse the actual book when preparing a session, you don't really need cards for that. OTOH, having the database itself might be more useful than flipping through the pages of the various C&Ts. And you're probably missing information for that since the old C&Ts were notoriously spotty on some details (compared to, say, such books as the original IK Monsternomicon).

However, if it is a Combat Help card, then the fluff text is not needed - what is needed is a text explaining the overall demeanor (aggressive, cautious...), the attack modes and typical behaviour in conflict, but that's all. An illustration would probably be useful, but mostly to highlight the general form and size of the creature - so having a top view and side view with a scale would probably be more helpful. And that could make for a smaller card, which is interesting since space behind he GM screen is at a premium.
It's a wonderful insight, and I can't thank you enough. My goal has always been for a supplemental Combat card, and that's how I wrote up my goals.  And as you point out, my layout certainly implies more of a reference card than a combat card.  Those are certainly two different things, and the layout should not confuse the two.  Thinking back, I'd place the blame for the confusion at the feet of Special attacks. They, as written, tell the GM to refer to the text for further explanation.  That's probably where I thought (improperly) "just pull the description"; I needed it for the Special Attacks after all.

What I should have done was create a new section for Special Attacks, listing the pertinent information there and referencing it in the Attack.  However, that's a MUCH larger undertaking, requiring a more sophisticated approach with respect to data storage, data transcription and textual parsing. Firstly each creature could have multiple special references, requiring a data storage approach to facilitate that (Foreign Keys in SQL parlance).  Then each special attack would need to be located, and properly described up front, which isn't something that could be done programmatically.  Then the textual description processing would need to be able to link those special attacks with the right special attack, for each attack the creature has.  Lastly, all that data would have to be restructured in a flat spreadsheet so that the Deck printing tools I've considered (NanDeck and Component.Studio) could access the data.   ??? :o ::) :'(  I think I need a hard cider....

And yes, the older product creature descriptions can be quite 'spotty'. I'm thinking of things like 'Binlore' (*) or the even less detailed "Red Skeleton".  ;D

Quote
I realise that doing this requires much more effort and probably also requires professional-level illustration skills, and as such is out of scope of your work... but I'm taking the opportunity to share my thoughts on the general topic :)
Don't you dare; no second guessing. I asked for opinions, and you properly highlighted several critical ones to consider.
As far as the size of the card goes, a smaller card is certainly well worth considering. My initial qualm's at that were legibility at a smaller size, and the amount of information required. Subsequent to this post (and on Reddit), someone pointed me to the 5E products this company https://www.evanandcolin.com/ recently successfully kickstarted.  I found it quite interesting that they chose 4x6 card sizes.

Your insights (and others) have given me a great deal to think about, and my concept of design has already improved. Thank you.

(*) In RMSS/RMFRP the complete description consists of "A Binlore has the body of a bat, but the head of a Troll"; that's it.  'Red Skeleton' (and a few others) have no description at all.

Offline MarnsFist

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Re: Thoughts / Suggestions: Stat Card
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2022, 07:37:42 AM »
Quick followup: My Data storage concerns were overblown; already fixed it that issue. Textual parsing was fairly straight forward too. Unfortunately my suspicions were correct with regards to the number of 'Special' descriptions needed. Between Poison, Special Attacks and Spells, it looks to be over 400 of them.
Just means I'm back to text entry, simply because I'll need to have at least an idea of the required size of those special attack blocks in order plan for them on the card face.

Thank you all again.