Topic: Bard's Controlling Songs List

[pantsorama]

In the game where I play a Bard, the Controlling Songs List may have become an issue.  Basically it allows low level spells to lock down powerful foes permanently.

The reason why it works this way is (as we understand it):

Unlike other spells the time limit of the spell is how long the Bard concentrates. (Note we have also added the restriction that the Bard needs to keep Line Of Sight - which makes perfect sense.)  As a Fm spell, there are SOME limitations - I suck against undead, constructs, etc.
This means that if the Dragon fails by even 1, then as long as the Bard concentrates they are held/stunned/asleep/calmed/whatever.
And as a second (or third) line fighter, it quickly becomes the only real strategy.  Fighters base the creatures while the Bard locks them down.
This gets even worse as the "True" versions of the spell come on line, and breaking Line of Site will not get rid of the effects.
And then there is combining it with Great Song. 

My questions are as follows?
1) Are we playing the spells here correctly?
2) If we are is there something we have missed?
3) If we haven't missed anything, are the spells a little too overpowered, or is this a situation thing
&
4) If they are overpowered, what is the best way to nerf them back into line?

Some potential nerfs considered:
1) New RR if the spell victim takes dmg
2) New RR at the end of spell victim's turn
3) Max limit of turns based on how badly they failed their RR.
4) Bard may lose concentration if damaged, under fear effect, distracted, etc.
5) Don't have just one Big Bad when fighting a bard.

I get it, but also, as the Bard, if the list is made basically useless then I can not hardly contribute in combat anymore.  So we are looking for balance I guess.

What say you all?

[rdanhenry]

The range of those spells is only 50'. That means that the Bard needs to be well within range of, say, a dragon's breath weapon before he can even try. "Calm" effects are discussed in more detail under the "Calm Spirits" list where Calm I further details that "no aggressive/offensive action" means "will fight only if attacked". Those fighters can't do anything violent without freeing the dragon to wipe the floor with them. Also, "Actions that result in harm indirectly to individuals are not 'aggressive'." So, Calm doesn't prevent sounding an alarm, for example. Likewise, even while the spell is active, Sleep Song allows a fresh RR if someone attempts to wake the target. I'd say poking him with a pointed stick counts. The only one I see as possibly potentially overpowered is Stun Song, but only against lone opponents who can't have some buddy attack the Bard. (And remember, these aren't routine "concentration" spells, the Bard has to keep *performing*, which is going to be tough to do if engaged in combat.) Given how weak the Bard is otherwise, maybe just let him get to be the hero once in awhile when the big bad fails its RR. I mean, compare to the Mentalist, who can do potentially loads of stun with his 1st or especially 5th level spell and doesn't need to concentrate. And isn't obvious and painting a metaphorical target on himself (or literally painting a target on himself, if the Bard has a weird performance choice).

[Grinnen Baeritt]

My Issue here, is that maintaining any sort of "Line of sight", past initial moments of casting, for Bardic Songs, does NOT make any sort of sense .

There are rules within the system for effecting creatures that cannot be seen, because they are behind a wall, but the caster knows, suspects they are there, but gives them a +15 RR versus the spells, so why, when the song can still be heard, should there be such a requirement, especially if that spell effect has a area, distance limitation and the target can simply move away?

I think the problem here is that, for me at least, is that I consider the "Bardic Songs" effect should work in a slightly different way to conventional point and shoot magic within the system. It's a performance, takes a certain amount of concentration, and can possibly be heard by "everyone" within a certain range. However, the power of the SPELL is limited to who the Bard consciously directs that power at, for the purposes of affecting that target in a specific way. To put it another way, treat it like a fireball centred on the Bard, that has the potential to effect those within the radius of that performance that the Bard wishes to affect.  Thus, cast in a darkened room, or if the Bard was blind, the spell should still have the potential to affect a target that the Bard can hear themselves... simply by focusing their senses (concentration) on that source.. not being able to accurately direct that concentration simply allows the target a bonus to the RR... 

[Ecthelion]

For the lower level spells I don't see an issue with the Bard's Controlling Songs. Like rdanhenry pointed out already, many of the spells have one or another limitation. The only powerful combination we have encountered in the past is the Song of Mastery combined with a Great Song V (50'R). Of course the spell has the usual limitations of Fm spells, but we've had a case where our Bard took out the entire Balrog's Olog Hai troll guards with this combination. The front line fighters held these trolls at bay for a few rounds and then the Song of Mastery kicked in, controlling half of the trolls and giving each the order to attack his left troll neighbor. So the trolls decimated themselves. Fortunately a Bard needs to have reached level 15 to have access to these two spells (unless overcasting).

[rdanhenry]

Well, I did rewrite half the Bard lists for RMSS in an article for the Guild Companion, but since the GC site went down, I can't point you to that. It made the "Songs" a bit more complicated, but also more thematic (actually using the skill for the performance used). It revised not only the Controlling Songs and Sound Projection lists, but also Item Lore, since the Bard's Item Lore base lists is inferior to the (Open Mentalism) Delving list. These revisions were carried over to the RMU Spell Law.

[pantsorama]

Well, I did rewrite half the Bard lists for RMSS in an article for the Guild Companion, but since the GC site went down, I can't point you to that.

Oh - I would LOVE to see those.  What was the article titled?  Some of these items made it to the Internet Archive.

... Item Lore, since the Bard's Item Lore base lists is inferior to the (Open Mentalism) Delving list ...

So I have noticed.  It is odd; most specialty lists are better as a base list.  It is also frustrating sine I themed my bard as an investigator of artifacts.

[Hurin]

... Item Lore, since the Bard's Item Lore base lists is inferior to the (Open Mentalism) Delving list ...

So I have noticed.  It is odd; most specialty lists are better as a base list.  It is also frustrating sine I themed my bard as an investigator of artifacts.

Yes, Rdanhenry's changes are a good correction/improvement. Thanks Rdan!

[pantsorama]

Found it on the wayback machine:

http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2009/sep/therangerandthebard.html

[pantsorama]

Sorry - that is the original link.  Try this:

https://web.archive.org/web/20191128001208/http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2009/sep/therangerandthebard.html

[Hurin]

I wish I had known of that article when I was trying to buff the Ranger and Bard for RMU by giving them additional spell lists.

I think you've really improved the Bard for RMU Rdan. I also added my own new spell list to help them out.

As for the Ranger, I agree with Rdan's basic point that the Ranger is a bit lacklustre in the combat dept.
          RMU adds the new Beastly Ways list (which I think was a Druid list in an earlier edition), which helps a lot.
          As I noted in my RM blog article (https://www.rolemasterblog.com/rmu-rehabilitating-the-ranger/) , I still think the Ranger needs a list to buff his bow (he is a Ranger after all) and melee weapons, which is why I reworked the old Guild Companion Wyrd Weapon lists into separate lists for Bow and Blade.

Another thing that hurt the Ranger was the relatively high costs for some specific Crafting and Lore skills that the Ranger was quite good at in RM2 (I think RMSS and RMU might have made this even more of a problem by making many skills cost the same for all professions, since some of these skills were in the Ranger's wheelhouse). For example, the Ranger used to excel at things like Skinning (cost: 1/3) and Horticulture (1/2) and Flora Lore (1/2), but if all Craft and Lore skills now cost the same, that hurts the Ranger. Note too that in RMU, the Ranger has the highest cost in the game for Lore skills and amongst the highest in the game for Crafting skills. The professional bonus helps, but the costs are really higher for him in RMU than in RM2.
          My solution to that was to offer individual skill costs for different classes, giving them a discount in skills that are within the core class concept (e.g. Rangers have a lower cost for Creature Lore). I also did that as a Guild Companion article, though I can't recover that either with the GC site down.