Topic: Arcane Shields

[katastrophe]

I had a look at that Arcane Shields list from the Arcane companion. Spell one is a shield that is an instant and concentration. Not sure who helpful that spell is overall since concentration takes up so much activity. The 3rd level spell like the others from the other realms is a shield with duration. Unlike the other shield spells from the other realms and the arcane shield 1st spell, it does not have the "instant" designation.

Does anyone know whether this was a typo or if this spell was intended to be worse than the other spells of its kind.

[jdale]

I can only speculate that they were trying to limit the stacking potential of spells on that list. But overall it seems like a good example of something that didn't need to be arcane in the first place.

[Hurin]

The one benefit of the spell being concentration is that it could potentially last longer that way. But that is a pretty situational benefit.

One other benefit of Arcane spells in previous editions was just the flexibility they gave to casters. E.g. Channeling users had no Shield spell readily available, and even Essence users only had it on a Closed list, so making it Open Arcane might have made it more readily available to Arcane casters.

[jdale]

In RMSS, for an arcane caster the arcane open and closed lists are cheaper than the open or closed lists of any other realm. But if you're a pure or hybrid caster of any other realm, the closed lists of your own realm are cheaper than arcane open lists. So the advantage is only if it's not in your realm at all.

That said, on the whole it's a more powerful list than Attack Avoidance in Mentalism, and even a bit better than Shield Mastery in Essence since it adds in spell deflection. I just think the arcane lists should be more distinct than simply doing things better or giving easier access to lists. There should be something fundamental about them that, while it is useful, also makes clear why realm-based magic replaced arcane. For example instead of deflecting arrows in a nice predictable way, create a chaotic region of air that causes them to fly in a random direction and attack whatever is along the new path. Instead of deflecting spells, change them into random spells.

[Hurin]

In RMSS, for an arcane caster the arcane open and closed lists are cheaper than the open or closed lists of any other realm. But if you're a pure or hybrid caster of any other realm, the closed lists of your own realm are cheaper than arcane open lists. So the advantage is only if it's not in your realm at all.

Yes, so an Archmage would have the advantage of access to a shield spell whereas a Cleric would not. 

I just think the arcane lists should be more distinct than simply doing things better or giving easier access to lists.

Definitely!

There should be something fundamental about them that, while it is useful, also makes clear why realm-based magic replaced arcane. For example instead of deflecting arrows in a nice predictable way, create a chaotic region of air that causes them to fly in a random direction and attack whatever is along the new path. Instead of deflecting spells, change them into random spells.

I agree there should be something distinctive, but the thing that made realm-based magic replace arcane (if we're going by the original explanation of Arcane magic, as it was first introduced in Rolemaster Companion I) was that Arcane spells took more effort and training to learn (and I would add to cast, since they had all the penalties of all the realms). The same idea of Arcane spells being higher cost was extended to the individual spell costs in Companion IV, section 4.8. Arcane spells also tended to be more powerful as compensation.

So for me, in RMU, I'd like to see Arcane spells continue to cost more but pack a bit more punch, especially if they can combine effects from multiple realms. This shows why they are harder to learn and cast, and explains why the realm-based versions have replaced the arcane version.
     That's a bit harder to do with a simple shield spell. I guess you could make it a level 1 spell (since Essence has shield at level 2 and Mentalism at level 3), thus making it more effective. Or maybe it could be a +30 DB bonus rather than the normal +25. Or perhaps it could be cast on others (none of the other Shields can, IIRC). Or maybe it could have a longer duration, Arcane magic being generally more powerful.
     

[jdale]

I agree there should be something distinctive, but the thing that made realm-based magic replace arcane (if we're going by the original explanation of Arcane magic, as it was first introduced in Rolemaster Companion I) was that Arcane spells took more effort and training to learn (and I would add to cast, since they had all the penalties of all the realms). The same idea of Arcane spells being higher cost was extended to the individual spell costs in Companion IV, section 4.8. Arcane spells also tended to be more powerful as compensation.

They don't take more effort in RMSS though. For an Arcane caster, the open and closed lists cost 4/4/4 and base lists cost 3/3/3, just the same as pure caster of any realm. The downsides are just a higher risk of spell failure, a dependence on more stats, and more limitations about casting (e.g. armor, hands free, etc). And possibly higher spell risk although that's setting-dependent. The dependence on more stats suggests that the other realms began not so much because of power or difficulty but because there weren't enough prospective mages with the necessary aptitudes....  the realms are for hacks and amateurs!!!!

On the other hand, in RMU the hybrid casters have higher spell list costs relative to pure casters (which really only kicks in at higher levels in RMSS), so it will be easier to put those costs a little higher for pure arcane casters and make that difficulty actually different.

[Hurin]

That would be good if the RMU system is consistent, and I like that approach: Pures have the lowest open/closed but highest arcane, Hybrid are in the middle, and Arcane casters have the highest open/closed but lowest Arcane. That's also consistent with RM2.

I should note that although the idea in Companion I seems to be that the Arcane spells are more powerful, in practice that was not at all consistently applied. E.g. The Manafires list in Companion I had Fireball one level earlier than the base Magician list did, but it also had Woodfires and Wall of Fire at the same level. The main advantage Arcane lists had in the Companions was that they allowed characters to do unique things, like inscribing Bladerunes and making constructs/golems. So in practice, Arcane spells' main advantage was a wider range of spell lists to choose from, which did unique things, at the price of higher costs and casting restrictions.

Now that RMU has shifted constructs and bladerunes and such to specific (traditional) casters, namely the crafting professions in Treasure Law, that Arcane niche isn't quite so clear. So that's why I think there is still some room to make Arcane spells more distinctive in the way I suggest above (e.g. they come earlier on the list, have heightened effects, last longer, have unique effects, etc.).

[Gideon]

One aspect of Arcane ought to be considered with Arcane spells in RMSS/FRP is that arcane failures caused corruption effects for those around the caster, not just for the caster or target.

So "historically" training in a specific realm caused less corruption to those around you. (e.g. Healing the princess... now 6 months later and 10 Heals...preferred name, "Evil Princess").

Regardless of the odds, the penalties for not speaking clearly, wearing/carrying little metal and knowing your failures could hamstring the party or npcs had a chilling effect on Arcane casting in my games. (did not eliminate)