Topic: Question about Staff Spell.

[CertifiedToast]

Me and my GM have been having a discussion about the spell Staff spell from the list Magic Staff located in the Essence companion.

My interpretation of the spell is that when you successfully store the spell into the staff there is no longer a spell casting roll of any kind needed when you wish to use the stored spell.

His interpretation of the spell is that once you have successfully stored your spell into your staff you must still make a roll to cast the spell and it is considered an instant cast.

The wording on the description is pretty vague on that point. All it says is "A stored spell may be cast at any later time with no preparation and does not prevent the caster from casting spells normally."

Posting this to see what other peoples interpretation of the wording is and to get some clarification if possible.

[markc]

My interpretations have always been the stored spell is cast as an instant.
MDC

[Ynglaur]

I agree with Mark, and interpret it the same way.  The spellcaster is already taking a risk when they put the spell into the staff.  In this, the staff functions similar to Wards, Symbols, Glyphs, and Circles.

[arakish]

My interpretations have always been the stored spell is cast as an instant.
MDC

Another agreement.  However, I also add that if the spell is a level higher than the user, s/he still needs to make a Use Staff Spell roll.  This is the same as the ESF roll determinant.

rmfr

[yammahoper]

I consider the spell to act as a key, allowing the spell to be activated by word, action, motion, etc, so it does not resolve as a casting.  The spell will attack at the level of the caster who keyed the spell, but receives no rr mod.  However, since the spell must still be directed at a target, I require 10% activity. 

If you do not track action with % of activity, it would be easiest to consider the stored spells keying as a free action.

[Ecthelion]

My interpretation was always that a) a spell casting roll was still required and b) the spell later requires no preparation rounds but is not cast as an instant spell unless this is what it is in its basic version. Without a separate casting roll the caster could cast the Staff Spell in a save environment, where spell failure would not matter, and later be 100% sure that his spell succeeds, e.g. in a combat situation. And suddenly being able to cast e.g. a Firebolt as instant spell and therefore be able to defend in melee or make an additional melee attack would IMO also be over the top. Therefore I think unless the Staff Spell gets handled in the more restricted way I described it just gets too powerful.

Just my 2 cents

[VladD]

Funny how a slightly vague spell description can throw people off.

It says: "may be cast" so it follows the rules of casting, i.e. needing an ESF only when the spell is not following the rules of automatic casting.

Following bit is: "without preparation" so the preparation needed is waived... I don't see anything that implies the spell now becomes instantaneous. Casting is a 75% action... unless it is already an instant spell. I know other spell store spells from Runes and Symbols lists allow instantaneous casting but see below:

"does not prevent the caster from casting spells normally." Normally spell store spells prevent spell users from casting any other spell, losing the spell stored spell if they do. The Spell Staff spell is not overly powerful, but it allows a spell user to take some PP to the next day.

[markc]

 The instant ruling was a decision by the last company to publish ICE products and was made with the following info in mind, the list was based on the RM2 Druid Staff list, the RM Collective Rulings and feedback on the ICE Forums over the years.




 Yes it is very common than one little vague word here or there can cause great confusion to others either then or many years later. That is why IMHO concise rules and language is need when writing spell descriptions and they are put into official print.
 Also remember that a lot of RM2 material is Fan based and just published as "is" so the language may be a bit confusing for some.


MDC

[Ecthelion]

The instant ruling was a decision by the last company to publish ICE products and was made with the following info in mind, the list was based on the RM2 Druid Staff list, the RM Collective Rulings and feedback on the ICE Forums over the years.

Where is an explicit "instant ruling" in the Essence Companion for the Staff Spell? According to the citation above the wording is "A stored spell may be cast at any later time with no preparation and does not prevent the caster from casting spells normally" and this sentence does not contain the word instant. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean.

[markc]

Ecthelion,
 Happy voice: As I stated a person at the Old ICE Tim made the ruling based on the RM Collective rulings and feedback over the years from the forum.  The statement in the book is the statement in the book I was simply giving the OP the benefit of me posting on the message board for over 10 years. But I think you and others have been here longer than I.


MDC

[CertifiedToast]

Thank you for the discussion on the topic.

I will do some looking around to see if I can find the Druid Staff spell list.

[markc]

Certified Toast,
 The Druid Staff Spell List was in RoCo I I think as well as the SUC.


 Also Ecthelion and I have had this same discussion before, ie after a new company took over ICE Publications.


 But first I would ask your GM how he wants to handle it as he/she has the final say as it is their game.


Also:
1) I have seen arguments made for the spell to be released as 0%, 100% and as an instant in the past.
2) The spell list can be viewed in many different ways, as a way to save PP (cast spell today into staff and save for next week [100% casting time idea]), cast spell into staff for fast casting later (0% or instant idea) and using the list as a magic item  (instant spell casting idea).
3) There has also been discussions on if you can use spell mastery (SM) to alter a spell then place it in the staff for later casting. This would mean that using SM is less dangerous. Some say you can SM after releasing the spell from the staff (small group IIRC).


 All in all it is one of my favorite spell lists but can generate lots of discussions over the table so it is best to talk to your GM (outside of game is best so they do not have to rule over the table before the game, or better yet send an email and let them think about it).
 I have heard it said that it can drastically alter some games if the list breaks some of the rules that they use, so some GM's handle it differently.


MDC

[mtpnj]

We require the spell casting roll to be made when the spell is used for a couple of reasons.  One is, as pointed out above, if no roll is required then there is no risk in the casting during combat as the caster knows the spell was already successful.  The second is record keeping.  If not required at that time and it is an offensive spell like sleep the caster would have to keep track, possibly through several game sessions of the BAR.  He would also know whether it is a good or bad BAR roll which might encourage him to dump the spell in favor of getting a better BAR roll.

We play and have always played spells off items are instantaneous so have allowed that for this list.   It does make the caster more powerful.   

[MariusH]

This is how WE play it:
1) The spell is cast (with the SCSM, if necessary) when the spell is stored
2) No roll necessary when it is "released"
3) The spell is cast as an instant spell
4) The staff spell DOES count as a spell vs the "max one spell pr round", so no other spells may be cast

We did a slight modification for attack spells, since we don't want the caster to know in advance how effective his attack is going to be. So for attack spells, the spell was cast as mentioned above, but only to check if the spell failed. If if DIDN'T fail, the spell was assumed to be successfully cast, but an attack roll was made when the spell was "released". For that roll, 01 and 02 results were rerolled, since the spell did not initially fail.

Also, if a situation arised that would make it harder for the caster to cast the spell (like strapping on armor after storing the spell), we decided that a new SCSM had to be made even when releasing the spell.

[MariusH]

One more thing about the Magic Staff: How do you handle "free hands" for SCSM purposes when using a migic staff? We decided that since the staff is actually supposed to HELP you cast spells, and you even get a penalty when NOT using it, any hand holding the Magic Staff should be considerd a "free hand" for SCSM purposes.

[markc]

I agree with you MariusH on your ruling.
MDC

[VladD]

My rule is that any "implement" used to cast or improve spells, does not count towards the no free hands penalty. So staffs, rods and wands used to cast a spell, staffs with bolt bonus, wielded powerpoint multipliers or adder, holy symbols, daily items that are activated are all not filling a hand when used.

[Ecthelion]

One more thing about the Magic Staff: How do you handle "free hands" for SCSM purposes when using a migic staff?

For us the staff counts as occupying a hand.

[Micael]

Sorry to say that most of the above interpretations are just to good and not raw imo.  The staff list would be a must list for every spell caster who want to cast effective combat spells, because in the first round of combat you otherwise coulnt cast a spell of your level without danger. We are looking to the store spell and there are a lot of different words used. "The caster can store any one spell in his staff. The spell to be stored must be cast immediately after this spell (within 1 minute). The power point cost of this spell is equal to the level of the store spell plus the cost of the spell to be stored. For example, in order to store a 5th level spell in a magic staff using Staff Spell I is equal to 5 (the level of the spell) + 3 (the level of the store spell) = 8. The caster must spend power points to cast the spell that has been stored --------- you have a max. of 6 round (1minute) to prepare and overcast. You have to use the PP twice, once in casting to the staff and again in using it from the staff, because of the last sentence. So no PP for the next day. Therefore you have to roll for spellfailure once during casting into the staff and again when you attack someone with a bar. Even with this interpretation magic staff and the store spel! are the only possibility for a caster to cast a very high level spell in the first round of combat with only a small chance of spell failure and every player use it... Thanks Tarinia