Aquatic / Land Forms

[Kristen Mork]

In Channeling Companion, the Aquatic and Land Form spells all have a duration of X minutes per level (C).  Why is concentration required?  Doesn't that make the spells useless?  I would have figured that the reason to turn into a shark was so that you could maul boats like a shark.  But, concentration precludes making attacks.

[Cormac Doyle]

Duration X minutes means that the transformation lasts X minutes.

To CHANGE requires Concentration

Thus you change yourself into a shark (couple of rounds of C) then start swimming. Realise you want to be a dolphion and change - C - and then continue as a Dolphin ... etc ...

[Kristen Mork]

That interpretation makes sense.  Although with any of the spells level 10+ you only need 1 round of concentration to transform.  This should probably be considered errata in that the duration of the spell is actually 1 minute per level.  The notation 1 min/lvl (C) means that concentration is required to maintain the spell, which I agree is not necessary.  Thanks.

[jaranka]

I'm pretty sure the (c) means you can continue the spell after its duration expires by concentrating.

[Cory Magel]

I believe jaranka is correct on this... but my books are packed away and my main computer is down for the count (hence why I have not been visiting a lot of places I normally do, slacking on email, etc), so I can't 100% say this is what we intended, but I'm fairly certain it is.

Unless I'm mistaken this is a fairly standard rule for duration... meaning if there is an X rnds per X seconds/mins/hours/whatever followed by a (C) that means the spell can be continued by concentrating.  This intention is so that, for example, you turn into that shark, attack a boat, take some serious damage and need to get away you can concentrate to keep the form and swim away.  So you have X amount of time where you get full action, then after that you can chose to keep form (via concentration) or not.

[Kristen Mork]

From RMSR section A-2, page 210:

duration (C) --- Concentration is required, except the period of concentration cannot exceed the duration given...

So, unfortunately, the official interpretation of the various aquatic/land form spells is that you must concentrate to remain in the non-human form.  This prevents attacking, which makes many of the monstrous forms pointless.  Cormac's interpretation salvages the spells and is quite reasonable.  However, this means the spell list is wrong.  The duration should be X minutes per level, with a note in the spell description that concentration is required to change forms.

[Cory Magel]

Ah, yes... (computer is alive again).

duration (C) â€" Concentration is required, except the
period of concentration cannot exceed the duration
given. The caster can stop concentrating and the spell
effect will stop. If the duration has not expired, the
caster can concentrate again and the spell effect will
resume.

So in the case of land forms what was intended is: You cast the spell, become that form, then can switch back and forth from normal to that form during the duration by concentrating.  Concentration is not required to maintain the form, but you need to concentrate to change back and forth.  Obviously at the end of the duration you revert to your normal form.

I also noticed that Fairie Dragon Form has a # notation which should be a @ notation.  You cannot use all of the characters skills in this form, but can cast spells.

[Kristen Mork]

Thanks for the clarification (this belongs in the official errata).

[MariusH]

There's STILL something strange. Cory, with your specification, the spell allows you to CHANGE form. The "spell effect" will stop when you're not concentrating; that is, when you're not concentrating, you can't change form. However, doesn't that also mean that when the duration ends, you're stuck in the form you had when it ended? Surely, what happens when the duration ends, is that the spell effect will stop, just as when you're not concentrating. Is that the purpose, also? Then you could stay in that form for as long as you like.

The spell definitely needs clarification in an errata. In fact, SEVERAL spells with a duration (C) seems to need specifications. It seems to me that different things are meant by this with different spells, not only with this one. Also, using spell mastery to get from C to 1rnd/lvl (C) seems like a weird thing to do, even though I guess at very high levels it could be useful.

[Marc R]

I think that the errata suggestion is a good one. . .that the transformation requires C, but that the duration is how long you are changed.

Cory, all things considered, based on all the above, what's your call?

[Cory Magel]

While it's up to some interpretation based on the official rule of (C) spells... so I'm going to describe this like this...

Casting the spell allows you to create an effect that causes you to transform into the alternate shape by concentrating at any point within the time frame (duration) of the spell.  You do not have to concentrate to maintain the form within the spells duration.  At the end of the spell, if in alternate form, you revert to your normal form.

In describing it this way you don't have have to be concerned that you need to concentrate during the full duration of the spell because the spell is merely allowing you to create the effect that requires concentration.  Make sense?

Now... GM house rule suggestions?  There are some issues with the power balance of this list depending on what your intent with it is and how you rule the duration works.  For example; If the list is meant more for utility (spying, air travel such as flying, water travel such as swimming) then the durations are problematic as they are somewhat short for such purposes and, in most cases, you cannot 'renew' the spell before it expires since you can't cast spells in most alternate forms.  To get around this you can rule the spell has the stated duration and can be continued beyond that duration by concentration.  This allows you to continue basic movement but not take any full actions past the normal duration.  However if the list is meant more for combat/tactical reasons (dragon form is a very powerful combat option) you might run into balance problems if you allowed the above house ruling.  While you would still only have 50% action available things such as Speed/Haste type spells, Adrenal Skills, and other items could allow for a potentially very unbalanced scenario.

[yammahoper]

I have one alteration to the spell that I like: if by the end of the spells duration caster has not assumed normal form, he will be stuck in the assumed form.  When stuck in such form, the casters mind is immediately submerged and the creatures mind takes over. 

There are several options depending on GM's desires on saving the caster. 
1) for every day stuck in the form, caster loses one level of knowledge.
2) after Re+Me mod in days, casters submerged mind is lost and will not recover if spell is dispelled.
3) casters mind will survive Me mod in weeks till mind is completely lost.
4) casters mind is not submerged but is stuck in form.  caster can attempt to cast spells at -100

Etc.  From first reading this spell my mind started playing with the "what if's" of being trapped in the assumed form.  My first imaginatings was of a group of priest gathered to assume the forms of sacred animals in an annual effort to help maintain the population in the wild.  For the priest, they knew eventually their mind would completely submerge and they would become the creature.  Or they become something more akin to a royal pegasus.  My indescision is obvious proof I never fleshed out the idea and made an adventure, cult, religion or even around it. 

[Marc R]

Cory, as far as I recall, few of the changing form spells really offer much in the way of combat ability until the very high end, or am I mistaken?

[providence13]

Along the lines of casting spells in animal form...
Oh, I'll just start a new Topic. 

[Marc R]

In your new topic. . . .take a look at merge organic and the true version.

[markc]

While it's up to some interpretation based on the official rule of (C) spells... so I'm going to describe this like this...

Casting the spell allows you to create an effect that causes you to transform into the alternate shape by concentrating at any point within the time frame (duration) of the spell.  You do not have to concentrate to maintain the form within the spells duration.  At the end of the spell, if in alternate form, you revert to your normal form.

In describing it this way you don't have have to be concerned that you need to concentrate during the full duration of the spell because the spell is merely allowing you to create the effect that requires concentration.  Make sense?

Now... GM house rule suggestions?  There are some issues with the power balance of this list depending on what your intent with it is and how you rule the duration works.  For example; If the list is meant more for utility (spying, air travel such as flying, water travel such as swimming) then the durations are problematic as they are somewhat short for such purposes and, in most cases, you cannot 'renew' the spell before it expires since you can't cast spells in most alternate forms.  To get around this you can rule the spell has the stated duration and can be continued beyond that duration by concentration.  This allows you to continue basic movement but not take any full actions past the normal duration.  However if the list is meant more for combat/tactical reasons (dragon form is a very powerful combat option) you might run into balance problems if you allowed the above house ruling.  While you would still only have 50% action available things such as Speed/Haste type spells, Adrenal Skills, and other items could allow for a potentially very unbalanced scenario.

I think I might take an approach based on the deity type. That is if it is a dragon deity I would allow the person to not have to concentrate where if the deity was just of Animals I would have it be (C). That way each list that allows change to... will be a bit more unique to a specific religion.
Also IMHO not concentrating is sort of a powerful ability so I might allow appropriate casters (pure) to drop 1 base spell list from their free 4 to gain the no concentrating ability for that list. I also would allow a talent that would allow the no concentrating option for a select number of lists for each religion with maybe a higher cost for the talent for spell lists not on that religions list.
IMHO the last talent rule above would allow for lots for flavor options for the various worlds religions and allow for some unique options if the PC spends the extra Talent Points to be different from others.


MDC

[Cory Magel]

Cory, as far as I recall, few of the changing form spells really offer much in the way of combat ability until the very high end, or am I mistaken?

It can depend on the game to some degree.  Animal attacks are particularly nasty against lightly armored targets for example and, obviously, something like the Dragon form is going to be very powerful.  You really have to stick to a ruling that is going to work across the board in my opinion to avoid problems.  As a house rule a GM can do whatever works for their game, but as a system rule I believe it should be consistent.

[rdanhenry]

Of course, you can't use your magic weapons in most of these forms, nor your various other magical trinkets. Given that only a very few forms allow spell-casting, I'd say that the combat potential is likely to be less than normal form in most cases. Is a wolf as dangerous as a 12th level human? Is a Water Hound even as dangerous as a 13th level human? Aquatic Forms has some potentially combat-useful transformations sooner than Land Forms, but only if you get into underwater fights. Some of the high level transformations are formidable, but they're high level, they ought to have some bite to them.

[Marc R]

I think the (C) to change and the duration for the time limit makes sense, and doesn't seem too over the top.

[markc]

BTW, for a Dragon form spell list take a look at Shades of Darkness if you have it.
MDC