Topic: About instantaneous spells and SCSM

[Doridian]

As told in other posts, my experience dates back to RM2. I'm currently dreaming of a game at RMSS and I'm trying to acquaint with the "new" Battle Round Sequence. With this purpose in mind, I was reasoning about "countermagic", looking through Spell Law for "defensive" spells. Just to give an example of my reasonings, I noticed that the various Cancel spells (e.g.: those in the Dispelling Ways Closed Essence spell list) are not instantaneous. My first thought was that in the very first round of a duel between two magic users, an instantaneous spell could be cast (snap action) before the defense of a proper Cancel spell is put on (unless for it a risky snap action is declared too). Then I realized that no attack spells are instants and, instead, many instantaneous spells are defensive ones, as Deflection or Spell Bending. So I started to reason on how a Spell Bending instantaneous spell could be cast in the Sequence in front of a sudden incoming fire bolt. More in general I started to think about how a "reaction" is handled through the Standard Sequence.

Maybe it has been discussed elsewhere, but I would like to pose here some direct questions on the subject.

A) if an instantaneous spell is cast in the snap action phase, but an SCSM roll is likewise needed (e.g.: because the spell is of a higher level than the caster), does the snap action -20 penalty apply to the roll?

A.1) (a side question) if a non-instantaneous spell is cast in the snap action phase, the SC modifications table (T-4.6 of RMSS) lists a -20 penalty: is it the normal snap action -20 penalty or is it cumulative (for a net -40)?

B) if an instantaneous spell is not cast in the snap action phase (say it's held in Opportunity; or it's cast after some movement), is an SCSM roll needed just for this reason alone?

C) RMSS section 18.2.3 regarding canceling actions does not cite explicitly anything about the casting of an instantaneous spell (in reaction of some sudden threat). Does it mean that even an instantaneous spell must have been first declared as an action (probably put "in opportunity") to be cast?

Regarding C) above, I would expect that a character should be able to cancel whatever is doing and to cast an instantaneous spell "on the spot", without waiting the deliberate phase, canceling whatever action was declared (and maybe, without any penalty apart from the need of an SCSM roll, see B above): but this option does not fit in any of the listed ones in 18.2.3 (and I would like to play RAW). Am I missing something?

And a last quick question:

D) I'm quite sure somewhere in the rules there are guidelines on how to handle Concentration (to keep a spell and resist distractions); I do not remember anymore where (Gamemaster Law, Essence Companion, ...)? Is anyone able to lead me to the proper rule?

Thank you in advance!
Ciao,
Ale

     

 

[Kristen Mork]

A) An instantaneous spell never suffers a penalty for being cast in the snap phase.  On the Spell Casting Modifications Table (T-4.6), the -20 penalty only applies to a non-instantaneous spell cast in the snap phase.
A.1) The entry from T-4.6 is the normal snap action penalty; the penalty is -20, not a cumulative -40.

B) I know of nothing in the rules that would require this.

C).  My understanding is that in order to cast an instantaneous spell, you must have declared it as an action.  As you noted, many instantaneous spells are defensive (many buffs are also instantaneous, though).  This creates a defensive quandary that leaves the mage at a distinct disadvantage.  If his opponent is casting a bolt spell, then spell-bending is a good defense.  If his opponent throws a spear, then deflections is a better spell.  So, I agree that nothing in the rules supports "reactions."

Moreover, this is starting to become an issue in my game as players become frustrated by the weaknesses of (defensive) instantaneous spells.  So, I'm thinking of allowing instantaneous spells to be declared at the beginning of the round as a placeholder.  E.g., in the snap phase, I plan to cast an instantaneous spell.  Once you reach the instantaneous spell-casting in the initiative sequence, a reaction has been primed.  From that point, until the end of the round, the character can decide which instantaneous spell he's going to cast.

The spell-caster still pays for this defensive opportunity: the instantaneous spell declaration counts against the limit of 3 actions in one round, 10% activity roots the caster in place if he's preparing another spell, and an instantaneous spell cannot be declared in any round that another spell is cast.  If we assume that an instantaneous spell cannot be used when an action is canceled, then the character cannot even cancel a regular spell to cast an instantaneous spell instead.

In short, the RAW are fuzzy on this matter, so you may need to improvise a bit.

D) Concentration requires 50% activity.  If you're using SoHK, then it also requires 1 exhaustion point per minute.  If you're using Mentalism Companion, then there is a cap on the number of rounds you can concentrate.  (If you're using both, I would recommend an OR combination: Either spend 1 exhaustion point per minute OR use the Spell Concentration skill.  I leave that decision up to the player on a case-by-case basis.)

Mentalism Companion also contains information regarding maintaining concentration in the phase of distractions.  Without Mentalism Companion's rules, a character should be able to maintain concentration as long as he is able to maintain 50% activity.  Although it's not explicit, one could interpret the penalties associated with maneuvers performed while forced-to-parry (-50), stunned (-70), and stunned-no-parry (-90), as resulting from reduced activity.  I.e., you can (just barely) maintain concentration when forced-to-parry, but not if stunned.

[Doridian]

B) I know of nothing in the rules that would require this.

RMSS 26.0 Casting Spells, Automatic Spell Casting, bullet 3):
A spell may automatically be cast if the following restrictions are met:
[...]
3) The spell is not cast as a snap action or if the spell is an instantaneous spell cast as a snap action.
[...]


It sounds strange to me; yet from the above, it seems to me that it's not automatic to cast an instantaneous spell, say, in the deliberate action phase. Am I wrong?

[Kristen Mork]

Doridian, thanks for the clarification.  I read the rule as: If ( (Phase != Snap) OR (Phase == Snap AND Instantaneous) ), then no SCSM is needed.  Thus, no spell needs a SCSM if it is cast during the normal or deliberate phase (and the other requirements are met).

The alternative interpretation is: If ( (Phase != Snap AND NOT Instantaneous) OR (Phase == Snap AND Instantanesous) ), then no SCSM maneuver is needed.  I don't think the text supports this interpretation; if the authors intended this interpretation, then the non-instantaneous requirement should have been explicit.  Besides, it would weaken instantaneous spells (unnecessarily, IMO).

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Doridian, thanks for the clarification.  I read the rule as: If ( (Phase != Snap) OR (Phase == Snap AND Instantaneous) ), then no SCSM is needed.  Thus, no spell needs a SCSM if it is cast during the normal or deliberate phase (and the other requirements are met).

I would say that this interpretation is correct.

[Doridian]

Oh, I see. Thank you!

[Doridian]

[...]
Moreover, this is starting to become an issue in my game as players become frustrated by the weaknesses of (defensive) instantaneous spells.  So, I'm thinking of allowing instantaneous spells to be declared at the beginning of the round as a placeholder.
[...]
In short, the RAW are fuzzy on this matter, so you may need to improvise a bit.
[...]

What about allowing the casting of an instantaneous spell as a fourth option after canceling an action? Obviously if no other spells have been cast in the same round. It seems to me enough in line with the actual sequence, doesn't it?

[Kristen Mork]

That could work, too.  In this case, a spell-caster could either a) declare a specific defensive instantaneous spell that he plans to cast or b) cancel an action to throw up an instantaneous defense.  This might help improve the value of the Elemental Champion spell that lets the caster choose whether or not he has armor when resolving a critical (e.g., with no helm, death, with a helm, knocked out---the spell lets the Champion survive the critical using the instantaneous spell).  Otherwise, the Champion has to always keep 10% activity around, just in case.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

What about allowing the casting of an instantaneous spell as a fourth option after canceling an action? Obviously if no other spells have been cast in the same round. It seems to me enough in line with the actual sequence, doesn't it?

I would allow the casting of an instantaneous defensive spell as one of the things that could be done when canceling an action provided no other spells had been cast in the same round.

I would not the instantaneous spell to be of an offensive nature when allowing for canceling an action (IIRC, there are only a few offensive spells marked as instantaneous - mostly on Evil lists - but I would be careful to specify defensive).

[Doridian]

D) Concentration requires 50% activity. [...]

Thank you for that! I'll refer to both the Mentalism Companion and the SoHK, then.
Ale

[Doridian]

[...]
I would not the instantaneous spell to be of an offensive nature when allowing for canceling an action
[...]

Which kind of "abuse" are you afraid of? I dare ask, just because it does not seems easy to me to find a sound rationale to support this distinction. I mean that, say, Word of Panic (14th, Soul Destruction) is a Force spell and, say, Spell Bending (5th Spell Reins) is a Force spell as well.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I never said "abuse". 

I only said that I would restrict the type of instantaneous actions allowed via Canceling an Action to Defensive spells. I would even be willing to issue errata saying that Defensive instantaneous.

Please note that the Canceling Actions section on page 54 of RMFRP does NOT allow for a character to make an attack using his full OB. He receives a -40 modifier. If you are going to allow for Offensive Instantaneous spells to be employed after Canceling Actions, then they should also receive that -40 modifier.

Personally, I think it is just simpler to keep it to Defensive Instantaneous spells only.

[Doridian]

Thank you for the answer. After your explanation I can agree. I'm only concerned on the definition of a Defensive Spell, as in Spell Law there's no such a Spell Type: "defensive", then, could be the purpose of the casting of the spell more than the inner nature of the spell itself. Maybe in the RMFRP there is the "Defensive" Spell Type or Sub-type?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

By "defensive", I meant anything used to defend, protect, or save somebody from something, without hurting or injuring another.

This includes bladeturns, and even the Landing spell if need be.

[Doridian]

I took some time to mumble on it. I see your point and I agree on a penalty. Maybe -40 is too heavy as it's hard to offset it by skill (there's only a bonus of +1 per rank, whereas an OB or a Maneuvering Skill can go high at leisure). I'll try it, anyway. But I would apply the penalty to any instantaneous spell (and not only to non-defensive ones). Still the casting should not involve an SCSM.

(P.S.: I'm tempted to lower the penalty to only -10; it's an instantaneous spell after all; in that case I would require an SCSM)