Topic: Are the Dark Gods and Demons of Essaence evil?

[markc]

 I think the unlife or the viod is the opposite of our soul. Which as far as I know hve not been able to mesure or detect with modern equipment. But through varous interactions one can affect the other if they know how as well as depending on the demision [parallel world, plane, etc] differ in the effect.
 So unlife in the viod gain very little power [?] be affecting our soul but in our demension if the unfile affects a soul they gain so much more power [?] because of the enviroment the soul is in.

 [once again I have to note I am not a SW expert in any way but just adding to the topic as a general RPer.]
MDC

[Arioch]

Also, Chaos does not always mean evil, but evil things can happen in moments of Chaos.

I agree, actually I think that even if sometimes (very, very seldom) small evil things can be related to it, Chaos in itself is Good... 
Repeat it with me: Chaos is Good... Chaos is Good... Good is Chaos



More seriously, this topic really spawns interesting discussions! And not only for SW, it's a real mine of good roleplaying thoughts!

[DonMoody]

Look at what Japan did to China when they invaded during WWII.
They considered themselves better then the Chinese, superior in every way and they could justify the things they did.

In the case of WW2 imperial Japan, there were many who had doubts about what was being done.
Also, we now know very well that the 'superior in every way' misperception was exactly that - a gross misperception.

In general (on Earth), most people know when they are 'doing wrong' - very few humans have a moral compass that is so broken or skewed.
However, for various reasons, people rationalize their inappropriate behaviour as either justified or as not actually being inappropriate.
Almost all criminals have one thing in common: They feel their actions were justified.

SW, like in most Epic fantasy, has a 'broad brush' good and evil.
Which is what is needed if there are such spells as 'Detect Good' and 'Detect Evil'.
One reason I prefer the RQ 'Detect Enemies' with 'enemy' defined as someone who is currently, at the moment the spell is active thinking of doing you harm - whether that harm is physical or otherwise.

DonMoody

[mocking bird]

In the case of WW2 imperial Japan, there were many who had doubts about what was being done.

You could actually use Japan for both Dark Gods and Unlife.

They invaded Manchuria and various other places for the sake of conquest and power - kind of like the Dark Gods & Chaos.

They also developed biological weapons and had enough beubonic plague on hand to kill the entire population of the world several times over - similar to the Unlife's weltanschaung (word view - love those German theology terms).

However Japan did not.  So it could be said that while the Dark Gods seek power and domination.  The Unlife seeks to destroy everyting.

To paraphrase the Big Lebowski - Unlife! .(edited for content). I mean, say what you like about the tenets of the Dark Gods, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

[Arioch]

They invaded Manchuria and various other places for the sake of conquest and power - kind of like the Dark Gods & Chaos.

Which is basically what can be said of any people invading another. Romans, for example, were notorious for their thirst for power and land. And talking about romans: Tacito used unkind words to describe his own people, which IMHO could fit well for a description of Unlife servants actions: "they make the desert, and they call it peace".

[egdcltd]

Are "Good" and "Evil" absolutes? Or are they just subjective, good and evil? What's considered good by one culture, at one time, may not be considered good by another culture, or even the same culture at a different date. And who determines the absolute morality? Most fanatics consider their view of good and evil to be absolute.

[Elrik]

I think Rome had other problems at the same time. An economy heavily depended upon growth and a people that demanded to be the Rulers of the World, but very true... if you kill everyone, and claim to save the day you are a bit on the pooched side.

DonMoody: I can specify a bit, and make more sense. I first read about the habit of the Japanese officers pulling in the old and sick to have beheading challenges in high school. Since then, I have seen pictures of the piles of heads, of the bodies being burned. Although I take most things with a grain of salt, eventually I find enough evidence to started to believe that it happened.

Also, for the record, I know that I could probably find a better example with a few minutes of thinking, but that one came out first. The Nazi's and the Jews. As you said about the Japanese that have misgivings about what was happening in China and the other lands near them, the German's that knew what was happening, had misgivings as well. One of my dads friends grew up in the time when they had the Hitler Youth and he said at first it was great. Things changed as he got a bit older. Eventually, he said, you keep silent, because you never knew who was near by and if you would wake to find an assassin in your room.

but, I think you are right Don, it is pretty easy to pluck the worst of a country and then blame all the people in that country. That wasn't my intent but it did come off that way...

This conversation is much bigger then the heading, and I think I am the person deviating from the topic... gurgle

[DonMoody]

Are "Good" and "Evil" absolutes?

In most FRPG, including SW:
Yes, these concepts are absolutes.

DonMoody

[DonMoody]

My point about Japan was things do not happen in a vacuum.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing."

Almost all humans have within them a moral compass (there are exceptions - sociopaths and psychopaths, for example - but the exceptions are the vast minority).
When one does not follow ones conscience, one usually finds some (often rather flimsy) way to rationalize the choice of not following it.

DonMoody

P.S. The 'good men to do nothing' quote is allegedly attributed to Edmund Burke.
But it is found in none of his papers nor in any contemporary source about or regarding him.

[Elrik]

"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing."

I agree 300%

[markc]

My point about Japan was things do not happen in a vacuum.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing."

Almost all humans have within them a moral compass (there are exceptions - sociopaths and psychopaths, for example - but the exceptions are the vast minority).
When one does not follow ones conscience, one usually finds some (often rather flimsy) way to rationalize the choice of not following it.

DonMoody

P.S. The 'good men to do nothing' quote is allegedly attributed to Edmund Burke.
But it is found in none of his papers nor in any contemporary source about or regarding him.

 IMO, one of the biggest problems occure when people's moral compass are not what they should be. But that is a debate for a forum far from here.

MDC

[Micael]

Knowing that this topic is extensive discussed through, I got one idea I missed in the thread, that comes from Terry's description of the unlife at the start of the 4th ed masteratlas: 1. The unlife can materialize as a large force\field\entity that could be felt as an area of unnatural fear  and shadow of darkness and cold. 2. If there is an Essaence storm- how would an Anti- Essaence storm be felt? It would be quiet a gruesome experience?3.Perhaps the unlife as an entity is not so different from the dark powers of ravenloft (if you.know this gothic horror fantasy world) 4. In my Kulthea campaign the PCs discovered a pale where the unlife has already taken over larger countries and is no longer hidden. It uses the elder worms (dark space- creatures&treasures3- 1 ed shadowworld atlas) as direct avatars and all people who are needed and could not converted to evil got an visible glowing anti-essaence implant near the neck to be controlled ...completely Best regards micael elandi