Preparing polls for your opinions to the next Shadowworld product...

[Micael]

Hey to all new and old fans of Shadowworld.
As Nicholas, the director of ICE, mentioned in one of his Director Briefings, a Shadow World relaunch is planned for the future. We could support ICE by providing fan feedback through a poll.

What should be the first products for the Shadow World relaunch? Should it be a novel set in a new ERA with RMU, a new area on Kulthea or the first appearance of different magic system? An adventure using RMU and including HARP or an older Rolemaster system? Perhaps a long-awaited area expansion like Priest King, EMER IV or Jaiman NE, a second edition of something with primarily RMU stats, or something entirely different or a combination? I'm preparing polls but would love to hear your ideas first so I can include them in the poll.
Thank you for your help
Micael

[Spectre771]

Something using the new RMU stats and rules is probably a great start, but *maybe* keep stats for the older systems as well.  I know this will increase time and printing costs though.  This will give players new to RMU (and RM in general) settings, modules, and material to jump into the RMU system.  It will give veteran players updated books on a setting they already enjoy.  I think the primary focus should be growing the RMU fan base and showcasing/supporting the brand new system.

[Hurin]

Emer IV would be a great way to start. I'm not sure what state Terry's notes were in though when he passed.

[katastrophe]

A reprint and update of the Master Atlas and possibly Jaiman. Using the RMU system. There is no need to keep legacy stats for adventure and books going forward. If you want to actually promote the new game and encourage new players to come on board, they should be playing the newest game that will actually be supported going forward. A relaunch of the Shadow World "box" as it was sold back in the days with the map and such but with a full update of the interior charts with RMU stats, racial descriptions using RMU and character creation would be great.

Jaiman is a good playable campaign as is Norek which would be good for new players to RMU and for old heads if they wanted to start a new campaign with a mix of players under the newest rules set.

From there new adventures either continuing the Norek or Jaiman adventures would be very nice.

[Micael]

Just to clarify your idea—there are others who argue that they don't want to buy 90% of the same content again just to update the stats. What is the benefit for those who already own the existing material with your approach? Why not simply release an RMU addendum instead?

[nash]

An updated master atlas for RMU is the best from my  point of view.   That unblocks adventures and setting material a lot easier.

I would get it up on roll20 within minutes ;-)

[MisterK]

From my point of view, a new regional campaign module, excluding Emer IV. Part of Kelestia, for instance. Or even Wuliris and Northeastern Jaiman.
Rationale : a new SWMA doesn't provide any added value for the existing SW public. An adventure module (as opposed to a campaign module) provides little added value because you can only do one thing with it, and probably only once. A campaign module is the middle ground : providing something new, that can be used on a small or larger scale, and that fits with the existing products.

Reason why I don't want Emer IV ?  I would not use it in any way, since I already described SW Emer in detail for my previous 6-year long campaign. It's a selfish reason

Alternatively, a city or city-state module in Emer (Izar, Sarnak, Ardania... there are quite a few of them available, and they make great adventure settings and regional hubs).

[Cory Magel]

I've always been a proponent of ICE publishing materials with stats for all their currently supported rule-sets. Not necessarily the core rule books, but any setting material, modules, etc.
I've been saying for many years Shadow World should have been the one official ICE setting with stats for both RM and HARP in anything put out for it.

Publishing RMSS or RMFRP materials with stats from RM2 could have helped sell those editions books to older version users too, but RMU makes that idea much more complex unfortunately.
All the versions of RM previous to RMU were pretty easily converted if you were fairly experienced with the system.

[pastaav]

Having HARP stats would be a big deal since this a different game...but different sets of stat for different RM versions??? What kind of difference are you expecting???

At the end of the day it might happen that there are SW NPC that are so powerful they cannot be legally built using the previous editions, but RMU with its concept of power levels can handle the matter but besides that there are very few diffrences. Just have RM stats and everything will work well.

[Micael]

Having HARP stats would be a big deal since this a different game...but different sets of stat for different RM versions??? What kind of difference are you expecting???

At the end of the day it might happen that there are SW NPC that are so powerful they cannot be legally built using the previous editions, but RMU with its concept of power levels can handle the matter but besides that there are very few diffrences. Just have RM stats and everything will work well.

Interesting thought- I was thinking, that Shadow World with RFRPG stats were much more powerful then with RMU stats in the same level... but could have misunderstood that.

[Thot]

I'd say Jaiman.  Emer is just too exotic for the main stream.

[Cory Magel]

Interesting thought- I was thinking, that Shadow World with RFRPG stats were much more powerful then with RMU stats in the same level... but could have misunderstood that.

No, there are subtle difference between the RM2 variations and the RMSS variations. The difference between RMU and the previous two can be more significant/problematic. pastaav may simply not have done much converting from one to the other over the years or just hasn't considered there people who have primarily only used one or the other and may not automatically adjust for those differences.

[pastaav]

Interesting thought- I was thinking, that Shadow World with RFRPG stats were much more powerful then with RMU stats in the same level... but could have misunderstood that.

No, there are subtle difference between the RM2 variations and the RMSS variations. The difference between RMU and the previous two can be more significant/problematic. pastaav may simply not have done much converting from one to the other over the years or just hasn't considered there people who have primarily only used one or the other and may not automatically adjust for those differences.

Of course, there are differences, but my point is exactly that the material is usable out of the box since the differences are indeed subtle. I am saying this as somebody who played most of Shadow World by using the RMSS system while making very small and rare adjustments. The obvious exception is power points. Core RM2 rules will make magic players close to unplayable due to the lack of power points...on the other hand, almost every significant NPC from Shadow World has magic items that overcome such rule system-induced weaknesses.

The differences in power levels within RM2 companions and between different SW books are huge, quite many SW NPC cannot be built legally in any version of the game. Why would the power level of RMU be a problem in practice?

[katastrophe]

Just to clarify your idea—there are others who argue that they don't want to buy 90% of the same content again just to update the stats. What is the benefit for those who already own the existing material with your approach? Why not simply release an RMU addendum instead?

Reprinting and updating the material would better and less confusing when sold beside the new Core books along with hopefully the monster/creature book. Anyone already playing the old versions of the game already have the Jaiman and Norek books and Master Atlas but someone that is interested in running RMU whether new or old would want the book reprinted and the adventures and stats updated for RMU. Though they look like the same game, they are actually different. The spell lists are different and the power levels are different. Also the skills and challenges are different so it is not an exact plug and play. Anyone new getting into RMU would be best served by getting the new Jaiman/Master Atlas/Norek. The reason I say those books is because Jaiman and Norek actually contain a campaign starter and with some additional adventures added they are very good at giving the feel of Shadow World. The Master Atlas addresses the races in a way that the other books doesn't since their half elves/elves/dwarves are not exact copies of the ones in the main books (subtle but substantial and some unintended differences).

[katastrophe]

I've always been a proponent of ICE publishing materials with stats for all their currently supported rule-sets. Not necessarily the core rule books, but any setting material, modules, etc.
I've been saying for many years Shadow World should have been the one official ICE setting with stats for both RM and HARP in anything put out for it.

Publishing RMSS or RMFRP materials with stats from RM2 could have helped sell those editions books to older version users too, but RMU makes that idea much more complex unfortunately.
All the versions of RM previous to RMU were pretty easily converted if you were fairly experienced with the system.

I have the exact opposite view. If the game that new books is coming out for is RMU then that is the game that should be used for stats, skills etc for all new publications. Folks that are using old versions of the game will change or adjust what they want in new material regardless of whether it has RMSS or RM2 information included. Look at the lack of progress and time it takes out of production for someone to actually do 2-3 sets of stats etc. RM and RMSS are dead games even if they have a player base. RMU is the current version of the game and it should be the only game for which there is support. Part of the problem with release scheduling has been the addition of all the other material and the hangers on for legacy support.

[katastrophe]

The differences in power levels within RM2 companions and between different SW books are huge, quite many SW NPC cannot be built legally in any version of the game. Why would the power level of RMU be a problem in practice?

This is a core issue with RM2 RMSS and RMU. They look like the same game on paper but they are not. They are different in their approaches to many things, magic and power levels for NPC and PCs being the main issues. Hence, allow the players that want to remain tethered to old dead games to make their own changes to what is produced, rather than burdening the writers with trying to compensate for them when producing new RMU products. The legacy games are what they are. We play RMSS but I do not need RMSS represented in RMU materials, particularly since it will slow that process down

[kmanktelow]

This is a core issue with RM2 RMSS and RMU. They look like the same game on paper but they are not. They are different in their approaches to many things, magic and power levels for NPC and PCs being the main issues. Hence, allow the players that want to remain tethered to old dead games to make their own changes to what is produced, rather than burdening the writers with trying to compensate for them when producing new RMU products. The legacy games are what they are. We play RMSS but I do not need RMSS represented in RMU materials, particularly since it will slow that process down

Whilst I broadly agree with that, I would imagine that there is a lot more people still using RM2 and RMSS, than there are actually using RMU. So, the question should be - do they want to deliberately restrict their customer base to the amount of people who are just using RMU, compared to the people who still use RM2 and RMSS?

Also Shadow World has always had a large reliance on some of the older RM2 Companion Books with regards Spell Lists, Attack and Critical Charts. Literally, you would have to rebuild most of the NPC's from the ground up and it's going to be difficult to maintain their 'flavour' using just the rather limited options afforded by RMU.

I've got RMU for completeness, but I will probably never actually use it - as too much of the stuff I have invested both time and money in are still RM2.

[MisterK]

Also Shadow World has always had a large reliance on some of the older RM2 Companion Books with regards Spell Lists, Attack and Critical Charts. Literally, you would have to rebuild most of the NPC's from the ground up and it's going to be difficult to maintain their 'flavour' using just the rather limited options afforded by RMU.

I agree with that - even when using RMSS instead of RM2 with all the extra professions and spell lists it was a problem (not to mention the pretty underwhelming treatment Arcane suffered in RMSS - personal opinion here, obviously). RMSS, despite having several companions to rely on, felt lacking in variety.
RMU will suffer from the comparison for quite some time.

To be honest, though, I don't care much as long as the stat block part is a very minor part of the books. I usually don't use it, except for major regional NPCs to get the level and profession to get a general idea of power and orientation, and any very significant magic item. My favored approach would be to have Shadow World books that are nearly system-agnostic (not *really*, but nearly - level, profession, and significant items). I think pure system-agnostic books lack some kind of anchor to provide a correlation with whatever system is used, but having dedicated stat blocks actually reduces the potential pool of buyers.

Adventure modules, however, are different, because they are meant to be ready-to-use - but I don't care for adventure modules one bit. But regional books or atlases ? They should be about context, setting and lore first and foremost, and should be useable with most systems that can support the genre. Regional books are toolsets for the GM to prepare their own campaigns, not ready-to-run things. You can (and should) include adventure seeds, and that was done in all previous SW regional books. But adventure seeds do not require full stat blocks, given that thy still require significant work on the GM's part to flesh them out and integrate them in their campaign.

(A side benefit is that it makes every crowd happy, and minimises the technical translation effort).

[katastrophe]

This is a core issue with RM2 RMSS and RMU. They look like the same game on paper but they are not. They are different in their approaches to many things, magic and power levels for NPC and PCs being the main issues. Hence, allow the players that want to remain tethered to old dead games to make their own changes to what is produced, rather than burdening the writers with trying to compensate for them when producing new RMU products. The legacy games are what they are. We play RMSS but I do not need RMSS represented in RMU materials, particularly since it will slow that process down

Whilst I broadly agree with that, I would imagine that there is a lot more people still using RM2 and RMSS, than there are actually using RMU. So, the question should be - do they want to deliberately restrict their customer base to the amount of people who are just using RMU, compared to the people who still use RM2 and RMSS?

Also Shadow World has always had a large reliance on some of the older RM2 Companion Books with regards Spell Lists, Attack and Critical Charts. Literally, you would have to rebuild most of the NPC's from the ground up and it's going to be difficult to maintain their 'flavour' using just the rather limited options afforded by RMU.

I've got RMU for completeness, but I will probably never actually use it - as too much of the stuff I have invested both time and money in are still RM2.

And that is the rub though, right? As i noted, RM2 RMSS and RMU are only the same game on paper. They are different. Hence the problem with trying to support multiple games. That is also why i suggested releasing the Master Atlas, Jaiman and Norek for RMU only. If someone is playing RM2 or RMSS, they already have that material in the latest form with those games information included. Further, those players have likely already run some version of those modules long ago. Hence, the fastest and most efficient way to get some things to market for RMU would be to reprint the material which requires the least complicated rewrite and that would be inviting to new players that might either be trying RMU or that are now joining a group that has been playing RM2 or RMSS but that are looking to start over with RMU. Someone that has been playing in a years long set of compaigns are least likely to benefit from any new Shadow World material aimed at RMU, as they are not going to switch to RMU from RM2 or RMSS. those systems are not backwards compatible.

The concern about restricting interest because of legacy players will (and I would say has) prevented the growth of RMU and was harmful to RMSS and RMFRP. I believe (and I could be incorrect) that folks playing the legacy systems will just modify whatever is released for RMU for their own games and purposes and there is no need to provide them with official stats. They will have been operating from a set of rules that likely deviate from the book systems anyway and will have been playing "Their version of RM". So there is no real benefit to catering to them. If you are going to support a game system, the best way to do so would be to put out material for that system and to do so in the quickest way possible so that you can have people (old and new players) invested in buying the new material and using it. Waiting around for multiple versions of rules and stats is just an unnecessary step going forward. Putting out RMU versions of the three sort of mainstay campaign starters would be relatively fast to do, allow new players to buy the main rules and essentially a campaign set and some starter adventures so that they dont have to do all the work themselves.

At the glacial pace the main necessary books are being put out, that is already unattractive enough but then catering to a crowd of folks that will be unhappy with whatever is put out eventually anyway because it is not "their Rolemaster" would sound the deathnell for any possible RMU Shadow World.

[Micael]

You can vote in the coming poll and we will see which opinion has more followers- thats the whole reason of all of this:-)
Getting a feel, what is the right way to go...