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Author Topic: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?  (Read 15043 times)

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Offline markc

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2009, 04:51:10 PM »
OLF,
 Is there a reason you did not include dagger as range 0 and sword at range 1? ie extend each one out by 1 range to include shorter range weapons.

RandalThor;
 Armor that subtracts from the hits might be more math for the players and/or GM. I have played in some systems that use this method and I like it from a realism point of view. IMO it would also be easy to implement  and would open up a large range of new magical abilities for armor and shields.
 
MDC
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Offline providence13

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2009, 11:49:43 AM »
My two bent copper..

"Armor that subtracts from hits" did work in a few other games (CP2020 for one) and Body Type could also be used.. Tougher people can shrug off hits (TW2K/2300AD/CP2020)... These other games were more simple in scope.
BOTOH, hit reduction IS included in Armor Type (isn't it?) and Body Type could be assumed to be Body Dev or even Con.. :-\ On a similar point.. The dreaded AT2! Shouldn't it be lower DB because of movement restriction and not increased damage/Crit? This always bugged me a bit. A Mage isn't injured more because of robes but would definitely be hampered in movement/DB; IMO. That's why skills like Dancing should increase DB to a limited extent. 10% of Dance skill or something.

Halflings have Heat/Cold reduction on their hands and feet; IIRC and this doesn't slow down the game....
Dwarves could have a Crush hit reduction from heavier, calcified bones or whatever..
I'm thinking -5 or so.. on the chart, not Hits. But nothing for Elves! :)

Movement in Armor is also handled in skills; but I agree that maybe it's too restrictive. This coming from a guy who does not do cartwheels in rigid leather or even chain. ;D
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2009, 02:02:11 PM »
I can see every character in the game being a bit more suave when they all have a dancing skill of 100+.
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Offline David Johansen

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2009, 03:47:56 PM »
The problem with subtractive armour is that it often creates invulnerability situations.  Heck, in the first edition oF GURPS Space, the only weapon capable of penetrating the torso of the light body armour was a tripod mounted heavy laser.

Rolemaster is less vulnerable to this problem because it uses larger numbers and can cover a wider range or armour values to represent types of armour without necessarily having the armour values exceed the damge levels.

But really armour should be divisive and alblative not subtractive.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2009, 06:35:52 PM »
MarkC: I don't think it would be too much to ask, seings as they are already adding/subtacting much larger numbers in just the attack roll; OB, %-dice, and various modifiers. Compared to that, subtracting 30 from 55 is child's play.

Providence13: That is why I like having a defense skill (instead of Adrenal Defense) that everyone can develop - to greater and lesser degrees. But not be so restrictive like AD. Another way to handle it may to have less of a Quickness modifer for armors so that their DB isn't lessened too much.

All of this is sort of making me think of something that is very anathema to the gaming community: Making it harder to hit* - enough so that hits only happen 1 out of 3 or 4 times. But, balancing that with much faster progression of damage for rolling well. Diagram below:

0 = Miss,  1 = Base Hit,  2 = Good Hit,  3 = Very Good Hit,  4 = Great Hit,  5 = Fantastic Hit

Old Way:    000000000000000001111111111111111222222222222333333333444444444555
New Way:  000000000000000000000000000000011111111222222233333334444444555555

Or something like that. (That is a very basic/gross diagram - obviously  ;D).

I have always like the combats where we had to do unusuall things, not just the swing back-and-forth fights, those were/are boring. But when you have to do some fancy maneuvering of some kind - that was/is fun.

Perhaps cetain weapons are deadlier than others when used extremely well. Such as a crossbow. Maybe, it's basic hit isn't all that much, but it's "staging" is faster so it gets to the greater damage faster than, say a dagger. Paranoia had something like this on a d20 scale.

Yammahoper: Unless that character is a Sweatbeast. (I am not, NOT! I tell you speaking from personal experience! Really...I'm not. Rea......oh, bother!)

*I firmly believe due to the majority of gamer origins (mine included) that we all crave the little successes in our games. (I.e., "You did hit..... for 4 points of damage. Now, let's see....that takes the orc chieftain down to 53 hits. Next.") Wherease, a bunch of misses, even when followed by a really excellent hit, "feels" bad to us. We crave success, even when that success really isn't success. Because connecting with someone using a broadsword/battle-axe/mace/etc should matter, just about each and every time.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2009, 09:58:46 PM »
What if DB was entirely about being hit and AT was entirely about taking damage.

These are just ideas... take them with a dram of salt.

AT 20 Plate...easy to hit, but takes little damage.
AT 1....potentially harder to hit because of defenders freedom of movement, but very easy to damage.

For those of you who don't like Qu bonus on DB bear with me. ;)
No Armor = X4 Qu
Light Armor = x3 Qu
Med Armor = x2 Qu
Heavy Armor = x1 Qu

These could also have "easier to damage" figures.
No Armor = if crit then +25,  x2 (hits, bleeding/rnd, stun, -X),
Light Armor = if crit then +10 unless blunt(+0) x2 hits, stun,
Med Armor = 1/2 (stun, pierce/slash)
Heavy Armor = 1/3 stun, 1/2 (slash, crush) --no mods to hits/rnd or pierce!

Or, you could just flipflop (mirror) the tables but keep the same crit charts!

On the subject of a shield skill... what if shields did give a OB penalty,(as mentioned, I believe) while increasing DB +25. Just like Armor skills, you must learn how to use a shield (with that weapon if you want to be mean about it) to off-set the penalty.

By changing how armor reacts to weapons... you don't have to have additional stats for each weapon.

If these ideas have been discussed already... sorry, I'm slow ;D
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Offline providence13

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2009, 10:04:47 PM »
100 Dancing would only give a +10 DB...
And with mage's being unable to wear armor (unless TA) and assuming some mobility with casting (hands free etc) Dancing isn't sssooo crazy; is it. :P
(Picturing Sword Dancer Maiden katas whirling in my head...)
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2009, 08:31:51 AM »
Quote from: markc on June 13, 2009, 04:51:10 PM
OLF,
 Is there a reason you did not include dagger as range 0 and sword at range 1? ie extend each one out by 1 range to include shorter range weapons.
Because I don't think there's a noticeable enough range difference between a sword and a dagger, not unless I apply such a range difference to each weapon, ending with at least a dozen "reaches" instead of 4.

Since I'm about it, I'm obviously using the Closing skill so my rule works with it but GMs not want yet another skill could work with an automatic "Closing" skill, which number of ranks equals the number of ranks of the weapon skill being used, the stats are Ag/Qu, and the professional bonus is the combat one.
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Offline markc

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2009, 09:18:03 AM »
Quote from: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol on June 15, 2009, 08:31:51 AM
Quote from: markc on June 13, 2009, 04:51:10 PM
OLF,
 Is there a reason you did not include dagger as range 0 and sword at range 1? ie extend each one out by 1 range to include shorter range weapons.
Because I don't think there's a noticeable enough range difference between a sword and a dagger, not unless I apply such a range difference to each weapon, ending with at least a dozen "reaches" instead of 4.

Since I'm about it, I'm obviously using the Closing skill so my rule works with it but GMs not want yet another skill could work with an automatic "Closing" skill, which number of ranks equals the number of ranks of the weapon skill being used, the stats are Ag/Qu, and the professional bonus is the combat one.

 I was just curious as I have generally seen hand to hand, daggers at 0 range, short swords at range 1, etc up to the last range that polearms.
MDC
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2009, 09:43:27 AM »
Yeah, I guess I could add a step and put daggers and similar weapons (knives, kriss, katars, etc.) at the shortest reach. Something like this new version, I guess? Have to try if that changes anything much.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 09:53:35 AM by OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol »
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Offline markc

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2009, 09:55:16 AM »
Quote from: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol on June 15, 2009, 09:43:27 AM
Yeah, I guess I could add a step and put daggers and similar weapons (knives, kriss, katars, etc.) at the shortest reach. Have to try if that changes anything much.
The place I have seen others say that it is needed is in fantasy close quarters combat. IE in a small tunnel a dagger might be a better weapon than a short sword or a fist. Another application is players trying to attack between other players. Is there enough room? Will everyone get a penalty to attack? etc.
 The above also generally followed by rules for difficult terrain and mods to combat.
MDC
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2009, 10:04:45 AM »
In my games, people don't often use a dagger against a sword, so I never really had the problem...

> The place I have seen others say that it is needed is in fantasy close quarters combat. IE in a small tunnel a dagger might be a better weapon than a
> short sword or a fist. Another application is players trying to attack between other players. Is there enough room? Will everyone get a penalty to attack?
> etc.
There are rules about the matter (the RAC rules in the Arms Companion, ?4.12, p28), which is not the point of the reach rule I address here...
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giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2009, 12:05:40 PM »
Swords, warhammer, spears, poleaxes, etc., are generally in the some reach range.

How you emply the wepon will make a difference. You can use normally a spear at the some reach of dagger (not viceversa), using different techniques. Many books display how a dagger is a very formidable weapon, expecially against armored foes.
Some for swords. The short-blade of a sword is an essential weapon (like the pommel, the guard and the handle).

A warhammer, normally mounted on a shaft of 1,2m to 1,8m, is used for close quarter combat.

The only (playable) difference in reach is for long range weapons: long spear, pike and the like.

Providence,
Armor will not hamper the capacity of dodging blows (at least if you are not interested in the dodge you see in the Hero like movies).
Fatigue (peculiarly heat) are the real drawbacks of heavy armor.
Leather armors will allow for a very good protection (expecially studded leather) with very little penalty. Boiled studded leather can withstand an impressive amount of punishment.

Weapon tables should be revised to reflect only the "protection" factor of armor, and not a quickness penalty.
New, more lighter, fatigue rules should be devised, to account for armor drawbacks.
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Offline markc

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2009, 01:01:37 PM »
DeathFromAbove;
 I do not know if it is true or not but some say studded leather does not exist. It is simply leather with rings to attach chainmail.
MDC
 
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giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2009, 02:31:21 PM »
Yeah, studded leather is boiled leather (cuir bouilli).

Leather boiled in oil/water/wax, hard pressed in tumbler and worked in various forms.
The border of the leather is nailed (studded) to remain in position and maintain the ergonomics (depending on the piece of armor made).

A leather armor of more than 3mm is practically unworkable. Only very skilled craftsman can handle this types of armors.

Boiled leather were also called the poor's plate armor.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2009, 04:01:23 PM »
DeathFA, I have not and likely will never don armor.. :'( and it's possible that I didn't understand exactly...)

So, not knowing at all what I'm talking about..
Are you saying that...You can touch your toes, do a backflip, kick your legs from a lying position into a standing position or even play basket ball, do ballet, break dance and parallel bars in armor???
You are da man!!! :o just kidding,heheh..

So, maybe (Armor Skill bonus - AT) + (SUM:Co,St,SD bonus) = the number of rounds one can fight in their given armor before exhaustion..?(Or even Average the +) We'll call this % Endurance. Since it appears that many people don't even use Exhaustion Rules, this simple system tells you how long your character can do something before having to Stop that action, or take hits(!), or rolling automatic fumble /maneuver.
For other skills, you can substitue...Swimming, Portage, Distance Running, whatever. For those who want a Mental Endurance (wacky, I know..) just use Re, SD, and whatever you think applies; Chess?The old Risk boardgame maybe.. This number could also be how fast they are recovered as 100% of book value + this number as %. I don't have full use of my book right now; my puppy is teething. :-[
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2009, 04:26:55 AM »
Quote from: DeathFromAbove on June 15, 2009, 12:05:40 PM
New, more lighter, fatigue rules should be devised, to account for armor drawbacks.

Yes! RM definitely needs new exhaustion rules.
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giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2009, 07:47:08 AM »
Personally I think that to be playable Fatigue should be like a expendable bonus for various skills.

Donning heavier armor will augment the fatigue needed to get a bonus.

Whatever the rule you will create, a fixed computation (like 3 FP every rounds, etc.) will slow the game and add no fun to the mechanics.

Players must handle this, imho.
And how you can create fun in this? Fatigue should be a tactical bonus of some type.
Heavier AT will need more FP.
The details (how, when and why) could be left for a more specific speculation.

You can add tacticism (and a touch of realism) without slowing down and adding options.

P.S.
With a well fitted chainmail (say AT 14) you can do whatever you want, even backflip (if you are very fit and skilled). A belt is essential.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2009, 09:48:54 AM »
Quote from: DeathFromAbove on June 16, 2009, 07:47:08 AM
Personally I think that to be playable Fatigue should be like a expendable bonus for various skills.

And maybe also be used to "activate" special abilities, like the Ki skills from MAC or Adrenals (obviously, these abilities would have to be optional, as they don't fit all play styles).
In other words, Exhaustion Points would become Arms Users Power Points...

Quote from: DeathFromAbove on June 16, 2009, 07:47:08 AM
Donning heavier armor will augment the fatigue needed to get a bonus.

Much like armor increases the number of PP needed to cast a spell in HARP...

What about using Body Development (HPs) for handling fatigue?
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giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #79 on: June 16, 2009, 10:56:50 AM »
Quote from: Arioch on June 16, 2009, 09:48:54 AM
What about using Body Development (HPs) for handling fatigue?

Yeah, I thinked about this. And this is a very good option.

1) Will remove the computation of a unneeded value: FP
2) Will take into account conditioning and training (and will give and added rationale for improving hits)
3) The high number of hits will allow for a granualer (very fine) use.
4) All this will be balanced since using stamina will give out bonuses but leave you weaker

Higher ATs will need more "hits" to gain bonuses.
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