Topic: Rolemaster Issues

[Ecthelion]

Ok, ok.

I'm on the loosing side.
I've argued enogh.

This is the type of closure that, to me, are bringing RM to a smaller and smaller market (Imho).
Even if I've bought the books without using it.

Is that your way of answering to the feedback given here ? Sorry, but I've told you early in the thread that the way you reported your issues here sounds very much like a rant and gave a suggestion on how to better gather input and feedback on your suggestions. But you kept on in this thread and it seems you can't accept that other people have a different point of view.

And keeping the good parts of Rolemaster and only changing the parts were many people have an issue with - and not only a single person or very few persons - is the way to keep RM in the market. Head over heels just modifying the system will certainly be no benefit for RM - and simply following your feedback without a closer look would be just that.

[Riemumieli]

Talking about issues, does anybody have a good solution to the AT1 is superior to nearly all other ATs? I got the idea from an earlier thread and although I had never noticed the issue, wearing normal clothes seems most of the times to have the advantage of lower hit points and crits. This IMHO is one the strangest things in RM and one has to ask, why this was allowed in the first place and why no one has corrected the flaw? As I understand, only now, in CC a new look a things is presented but the downside is that every individual AT doesn't have an attack table.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

As I understand, only now, in CC a new look a things is presented but the downside is that every individual AT doesn't have an attack table.

The attack tables in Combat Companion has 10 Armor Ratings. That is because the attack tables in Combat Companion utilize a different paradigm when dealing with armor, as detailed in the Armor by the Piece rules also found in Combat Companion. And that new Armor system only has 10 Armor Ratings. So, the tables in CC DO cover all of the Armor Ratings.

There is also an AT to AR conversion table in CC as well.

[naphta23]

The chart are monolitic and very similar, especially combat chart. And chart are the first thing to be revised (not eliminated) to be more generic, more dynamic and more fun.

First of all: sorry if I was insulting or infuriating with my narrow minded arguments.

The problem is, that I do not know a better fantasy roleplaying game, which does by all ends not mean that I have played them all, perhaps I only played worse games or have a completely other taste. Of all campaigns I ever gamemastered or took part in as a player, that Rolemaster campaign lasted much longer than any other, and still does - the players and I still have have as much fun as at the start of the campaign, if not more.
So you are right, I have problems with an open mind, since I really enjoy as a gamemaster, that even I cannot really predict what is going to happen. And it is quite likely that I have not as much experience as you have with other roleplaying games or with Rolemaster; I cannot deny that I could be going to realize the same problems that you have experienced, that I am upset with the way Rolemaster provides solutions for various situations.
Problem is, we rarely use the charts / tables, we just roll the dice sometimes, look at the result, most of the times without looking for the skill bonus, and decide what happens, thus we rarely look for the descriptions on the Maneuver tables. Perhaps in a certain time we also are about to be bored by the charts/tables, experience the same problems.

The problem I see is the charts - many gamers I know detest Rolemaster without having it ever played. Most of the time, they think their prejudices are justified as soon as they see some charts. They do not want to believe that combat is much faster than in other roleplaying games, they refuse to try out and decide for themselves.
I do not know if changed charts would help Rolemaster to be accepted by a larger group of gamers, but it could be worth a try. But how can the charts become more dynamic, more consistent and satisfying while not become much bigger and therefore more unattractive to other gamers?

I beg your pardon should I have given you the impression of me being a pig-headed person and your opinion being unwanted; I am interested in your opinion and I would like to find a solution for your problems with Rolemaster - after all, me and my players could also profit from your experiences and proposed enhancements.

[markc]

Talking about issues, does anybody have a good solution to the AT1 is superior to nearly all other ATs? I got the idea from an earlier thread and although I had never noticed the issue, wearing normal clothes seems most of the times to have the advantage of lower hit points and crits. This IMHO is one the strangest things in RM and one has to ask, why this was allowed in the first place and why no one has corrected the flaw? As I understand, only now, in CC a new look a things is presented but the downside is that every individual AT doesn't have an attack table.

 First welcome to the forums if no one has said so before.

 The fix I use is to change the old AT1 to AT2 and use AT1 for fast creatures. It has worked very well for me in the past and I think the future.

MDC

[rdanhenry]

Talking about issues, does anybody have a good solution to the AT1 is superior to nearly all other ATs? I got the idea from an earlier thread and although I had never noticed the issue, wearing normal clothes seems most of the times to have the advantage of lower hit points and crits. This IMHO is one the strangest things in RM and one has to ask, why this was allowed in the first place and why no one has corrected the flaw? As I understand, only now, in CC a new look a things is presented but the downside is that every individual AT doesn't have an attack table.

Bear in mind that AT 1 is light clothing. ATs 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 are all just as much "normal clothing" as is AT 1, unless you really think putting on a jacket is exotic. If you are going to be in cold weather or crawling through brambles, AT 1 might be your best bet for combat, but not for environmental protection. AT 1 would be common in summer in most settings, but would be too cold for winter.

The main issue with ATs are that people forget that ATs 5-8 are not actually armor and the way that mobility is double-punished in both the charts and the reduction of Quickness DB in armor. I think there would be no problem simply eliminating the DB restriction for armor that has been properly fitted to the individual. I would say that wearing a backpack would be far more of an issue in evasive movement than any form of armor.

[pastaav]

Bear in mind that AT 1 is light clothing. ATs 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 are all just as much "normal clothing" as is AT 1, unless you really think putting on a jacket is exotic. If you are going to be in cold weather or crawling through brambles, AT 1 might be your best bet for combat, but not for environmental protection. AT 1 would be common in summer in most settings, but would be too cold for winter.

I use the idea that AT1 is very light clothes indoor clothes. AT2 represent the durable clothes you would use when you are outdoor. A player in a sunny climate might elect to keep his indoor clothes and still use AT1 if he has no weaponbelt, backpack and similar. Problem with using these kind of light clothes is of course that they will not stay whole when subjected to typical adventuring situations.

[thrud]

You got some valid thoughts on the clothing issue here.
This reminds me that this is something we should discuss in our group.
I took a quick look in Arms Law and AT2 are Robes. Robes can be made out of various materials and need not be heavy.
Heavy clothes are actually supposed to be found under "soft leather base", AT5-AT8 according to Arms Law anyway. (RMC Arms Law, p.12)
Maybe AT6 would be the most appropriat one for really heavy outdoors clothes?

Still, I will argue that AT1 can be warm and durable cothing as well. I have personal experience with both sewing and wearing medieval style clothing (Linen, hemp, wool, leather...) and they do not restrict your movement in a significant way if sewn right.

I would say AT1 for normal outdoor clothing covering warm through cold weather, AT6 for winterclothing.

[Riemumieli]

First welcome to the forums if no one has said so before.
The fix I use is to change the old AT1 to AT2 and use AT1 for fast creatures. It has worked very well for me in the past and I think the future.
MDC

Thanks for the warm welcome. How fast is a fast creature and do you mean creatures that have AT1 normally or something else?

[vroomfogle]

I use AT 2 as the default AT for everyone - it makes armor much more appealing.  AT 1 is reserved for special creatures such as skeletons.

[Riemumieli]

I use AT 2 as the default AT for everyone - it makes armor much more appealing.  AT 1 is reserved for special creatures such as skeletons.

That sounds like an idea worth trying, thanks. Now all I have to do is lure the old gang to play RM once again. The good old times, I once played a teenage mutant ninja turtle (RMC VI had stats for all C&T monsters including animals) and an elephant dancer.

[markc]

First welcome to the forums if no one has said so before.
The fix I use is to change the old AT1 to AT2 and use AT1 for fast creatures. It has worked very well for me in the past and I think the future.
MDC

Thanks for the warm welcome. How fast is a fast creature and do you mean creatures that have AT1 normally or something else?

 I also have AT2 be the normal AT for player charactrers and most monsters that are AT1. I play it by ear when determining what type of creature geta AT1. So a panther would get AT1 in my book but unlike the post above skeletons would not as in my game they are rather slow and ploding. I do have a rule that says any creature that has a Fast Movment rating listed in RMSS C&T or any other product gets an AT of 1. For others I have to use my best judgment and a little tought.
MDC

[giulio.trimarco]

I'm working on a new table system for RM.

When it's ready I'll post the work.

The target is to generalize, simplify and give more "interaction" during combat.

When I've done the engine an hand could be useful in filling the critical table.
If someone is interested let me know.

[Arioch]

When it's ready I'll post the work.

Instead of posting here, I suggest you to send it as an article to the Guild Companion: http://www.guildcompanion.com/

Easier for you (you don't have to figure out how post tables here in the forums) and probably more people will see it. 

... and you've got a PM.

[giulio.trimarco]

Ohh, I don't mind that many people check the tables.

I mind that someone can see that new approches are possible to old problems.

[DavidKlecker]

Ok, ok.

I'm on the loosing side.
I've argued enogh.

This is the type of closure that, to me, are bringing RM to a smaller and smaller market (Imho).
Even if I've bought the books without using it.

Is that your way of answering to the feedback given here ? Sorry, but I've told you early in the thread that the way you reported your issues here sounds very much like a rant and gave a suggestion on how to better gather input and feedback on your suggestions. But you kept on in this thread and it seems you can't accept that other people have a different point of view.

And keeping the good parts of Rolemaster and only changing the parts were many people have an issue with - and not only a single person or very few persons - is the way to keep RM in the market. Head over heels just modifying the system will certainly be no benefit for RM - and simply following your feedback without a closer look would be just that.

Agreed. I find that some people come into an discussion with a bit too much passion and emotion. It's a good idea to sit on your issues for a few days if that is the case. When you present issues with emotion and suddenly people start to see this emotion it does nothing but degenerate the discussion to a lose-lose situation. There is no such thing as a wrong opinion, however there is such a thing as a flawed opinion. This is the whole idea of a debate. You may have an opinion but someone might present a flaw or disagreement with the opinion. Again if emotion or passion enter into it the debate is lost and suddenly it's a street fight.

[giulio.trimarco]

Hi,

I've nearly completed my table prototype, I'll post a PDF with an table example, say about a Broadsword.
The table is done with a simple OpenOffice Calc sheet, so whatever weapon could be implemented in minutes 

Meanwhile I'd like to know how you fell about this type of approch (without starting a war  ).

The table will resemble the one from Arms Law.
Armor on the top, scored attack number on the side, and a table per weapon.

Now, first of all the AT(Armor Types) aren't really AT but AM(Armor Material).
In essence the table will tell that IF you make contact with whatever location (more later) covered with a specific AM, you will score that damage.

Example: Glasc attack a poor peasant covered from head to toe (for semplicity) by clothing (light-medium) (AM2). His attack hit with a 87 to torso, so we check AM2. The damage is 12AS.
If the pesant has a chainmail (how lucky) on torso whe should check AM7.

Now I've implemented a "penetration" concept. This boils down to this.
Every weapon has up to three critical types. In essence the aspect witch can cause a injury. For a sword their essentially slash and point.
In addition to this a non-penetrating crit type is added.
For example even is a sword will still wound a plate protected location (an "A" crit), the damage could be only a "blunt" damage, for now we will use Krush, but I plan to implement a "Blunt" crit table.

This way, still retaining RM weapon chart, you'll have the possibility to totally customize armor (by location), eliminate the double quick penalties, and every armor material will improve the protection.

More will follow.

[giulio.trimarco]

Mmmm, how can I post a PDF?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Mmmm, how can I post a PDF?

You can either post it in  the Vault or you can post it on some other site and then provide a link to it here.
ICE does not permit the posting of files to threads by the general populace.

[giulio.trimarco]

Thanks for the info.