Topic: Immortal Elves

[markc]

 Maybe Elves who have had a very tough life can regress so to speak. To do so they meditate and forget many things. So in effect they can lose levels by the act of forgetting. The only problem I see with this is the losing of Body Dev Points but then again a lot of the PC "hits" can be thought of as the PC's ability to just power on and not let little cuts and scrapes bother them.
 [I think someone said the same thing above OOO So Long Ago.]

MDC 

[rdanhenry]

Tolkien's Eldar are not distinct from a lot of traditional ideas of Elves in their immortality, but they are original creations and he more than once wrote of regretting using the term "elf" with respect to them (as he bemoaned the use of "goblin" for orcs and really kicked himself for the gross error with "hobgoblin", but likes "dwarves", JRRT changed the language so that most people these days think of a "hobgoblin" (literally "small goblin") as being (if they think of it at all) as being a large goblin).

For all their immortality, the Eldar are much more human-like than most folklore elves.

[rdanhenry]

I disagree with the assertion that it's D&D thinking to say that a fighter who hadn't touched a sword in a thousand years would forget the skill. Martial artists must train constantly just to maintain their skills let alone see any improvements.

Now you are talking real-world factors, not game realities. In the real world, there is no such thing as a "level" or a "fighter", either, in the RPG sense. Don't use gamer-speak if you want to switch subjects. For that matter, if the elf has really lost his martial skills and thinking, he'd be better modeled as a low- to mid-level Layman, rather than a Fighter at all.

Frankly, if he's forgetting his skills and all, what makes you think he'd necessarily recall events from that long ago? Or identify himself with that prior version of himself. Humans disassociate themselves from previous actions over a vastly shorter period of time. Certainly, an immortal race will have a statue of limitations even for the worst crimes. It just isn't worth keeping cold case files open forever.

In life I have chosen to discard skills. I could no more do Algebra II today than fly without an airplane. I haven't used it in 20 years, and Algebra II is less demanding than the study of the sword which requires both physical and mental conditioning.

You don't entirely lose old skills, though. You can relearn "lost" skills more quickly (assuming no actual damage to the brain) than you can learn new skills. Games generally don't try to model the need to maintain skills in detail, but the increasing experience cost for higher levels makes a fairly good approximation. Any attempt to model in detail will wind up a mess fairly quickly, with minimal, if any, gains in realism.

[markc]

 Actually Math in general helps you with solving all types of problems. From balancing, moving things around to solve the problem, thinking about subtracting instead of adding, etc.
 IMO a lot of people do not understand just how much science and math help them in day to day life.

MDC

[GrumpyOldFart]

markc, That was one of the points I used to make back in the day when people were scared of RPGs being 'dangerous'.

My argument was hat no, on the contrary, RPGs teach people constant, automatic use of simple math, and innovative problem solving.

[yammahoper]

And Players are the ULTIMATE plot device.

I disagree.  PC's are meant to unravel the plot, not act as a plot device.  I might have a plot device murdered, or possessed, or crippled with no cure, or whatever, but never a PC.  Players get to determine thier PC's fate.  If that is not so, then at the game I'll just bring a 12 pack, some pizza and sit there while you just TELL me the story.  That should take maybe 20 minutes, then we can all do something fun.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I might have a plot device murdered, or possessed, or crippled with no cure, or whatever, but never a PC.  Players get to determine thier PC's fate.

Fine and good, but the PC's history that the GM and player worked out (and for that matter, that occurred during previous games) is still the best source for story hooks, as you can fairly well count on their motivation. I mean, they already decided on that motivation before you chose to use it as ammo to move the story, so you know going in they won't say, "Yeah, but this guy would never think that way." It's because the player already said he thought that way that you decided to use it.

[Dreven1]

But then, part of the delight of RPGs is that 2 GMs don't have to agree on everything, or indeed anything, for their players to all be having fun

Yup, good point Grumpy!  I totally agree with this! I have seen many different perspectives on the topic (and what a great topic this has been!) and have learned and considered more depth in the way I present immortal elves in my games.  Great posts by all and hurrah to the author - RandalThor!!!!!

[Jenkyna]

In no way shape or form would I dispute that math is valuable in the real world. To my recollection Algebra II was fundamentally about learning to solve Quadratic equations, and while I remember that much I couldn't tell you what a quadratic equation is or how to solve one. In order to relearn that I would probably have to take Algebra II again. I might have to go back and relearn Algebra I and Geometry. Now you can certainly make an argument that having once known it I might learn it faster than the people who were learning for the first time. You can also make an argument that I might be able to regain a degree of proficiency that I once possessed above that of basic learned knowledge given enough time to practice and relearn.

It isn't always a question of learning or relearning a skill. Physical endeavors often require a person to hone a set of reflexes specific to the skill they are learning, or development themselves physically to a degree that makes the endeavor possible to them in the first place. In many skills it's necessary to practice till proficiency in an action is so instinctive that it can be performed without thinking. In combat if you stop to say to yourself "He's swinging his sword at my head so I should counter by swinging my sword at his chest" by the time you finish the thought and before you started the action his sword would have cloven your skull in two. Warriors trained themselves to a point that action and counteraction were instinctive responses that could be called up in a split second without any unnecessary thought involved. Musicians do the exact same thing. A violinist needs their mind free to interpret music, and the violin is an extraordinarily difficult instrument to play. Violinist train their bodies to play the instrument instinctively, so their mind can be free to creatively interpret the music they are playing. Typically we don't worry about that level of detail outside of a backstory in FRP, but rather rely on our perfectly serviceable rules for innitial skill allocation.   

Now we could argue all year about the level of detail necessary in a rule system, but the fundamental point is you would have to spend some effort to retrain a complex skill for it to be usable if you put it down for a long period of time. I think perhaps I didn't state my position clearly enough. A person who put down combat skills for a millenia wouldn't be a level 1 fighter at all. He would have to redo a part of his apprenticeship before he possessed the proficiency of a level 1 fighter. Now this might mean he accomplished returning his skills to a level 1 proficiency in 4 years as opposed to the 8 - 12 that a full apprenticeship might take.  Regardless of whether you agree that a person would loose a skill from disuse the point of my original statement remains valid. The GM doesn't have to fall victim to a player exercising some esoteric rule to give his 1000 year old 1 level character the skills of a level 10 character. Ultimately the points we are debating are probably most useful in that they give the GM's who read this information they can use in making judgement calls appropriate to their campaign when these types of esoteric rules pop up in an inconvenient way.   

I do have to ask a question though. Why do you think real world comparisons have no place in discussing FRP rules systems? I happily agree that there is no real world parallel to concussion hits, experience points, levels, etc. FRP's however tend to include elements of both fantasy and reality. Spell Law is pretty much pure fantasy where ARMS Law is clearly an effort to take knowledge of real world weapons and armor, and turn that knowledge into a rules system that allows you to as realistically as possible resolve armed combat in an RPG. Arms Law could not have been created without considering real world weapons, armor, fighting styles, methods of construction and the skills necessary to use them. Any debate about rules in ARMS Law would likely also have to draw on such knowledge. Obviously in real life if someone smacks you with a two handed sword you don't tally the concussion hits, but the form and function of a Scottish two handed sword as opposed to a Japanese Katana is relevant to FRP rules.

[RandalThor]

I disagree with the assertion that it's D&D thinking to say that a fighter who hadn't touched a sword in a thousand years would forget the skill.

Actually, in D&D there isn't. So long as the number is on the characte sheet, they have the ability/skill/power/etc no matter how long it has been. It is only in real life that that happens (or maybe not losing it completely, but to such as degree that it might as well be lost completely  ).

Great posts by all and hurrah to the author - RandalThor!!!!!

Thank you, thank you. No applause, just throw $$$$$.
 

[markc]

 IMO people tend to like some RL stuff in there RPG because it gives them a solid ground to stand on. Or IMO in story terms you take something they know well and then change a few parts to make them think it is entirely new world.  It also makes it easier when describing some of the tasks. Such as eating, drinking, swiming, running etc.

MDC

[Jenkyna]

Well when I ran games I used a number of settings including Middle Earth, Shadow World, and some of TSR's world settings converted to RM. Shadow World was really the only setting which was new to most of the players. All the various worlds were connected in some way. That was least true of Middle Earth which was part of the universe system, but segrated away from it by divine intervention. I pretty much used the Tolkien elf concept in all of them, but the in the TSR world settings they were dwarf elves. The players mostly ran humans though with only one or two elves in the bunch.

[RandalThor]

A person who put down combat skills for a millenia wouldn't be a level 1 fighter at all. He would have to redo a part of his apprenticeship before he possessed the proficiency of a level 1 fighter.

OK, but what is he? He didn't sit in a dark room with no other sensory imput. He did other things during that time, so he would be something (in terms of an RPG: some profession/class). The fact that he was alive and active in the world for the thousand years means that he was doing things and living life, which means that he learned something of some profession, which means he is some levels of some profession, even if it isn't the one he started out in.

I do have to ask a question though. Why do you think real world comparisons have no place in discussing FRP rules systems? I happily agree that there is no real world parallel to concussion hits, experience points, levels, etc. FRP's however tend to include elements of both fantasy and reality. Spell Law is pretty much pure fantasy where ARMS Law is clearly an effort to take knowledge of real world weapons and armor, and turn that knowledge into a rules system that allows you to as realistically as possible resolve armed combat in an RPG. Arms Law could not have been created without considering real world weapons, armor, fighting styles, methods of construction and the skills necessary to use them. Any debate about rules in ARMS Law would likely also have to draw on such knowledge. Obviously in real life if someone smacks you with a two handed sword you don't tally the concussion hits, but the form and function of a Scottish two handed sword as opposed to a Japanese Katana is relevant to FRP rules.

I totally agree here; we live in the real world so everything we draw from is from the real world. Gravity makes you fall - unless you use a spell or other power to counter act gravity (real, then fantasy)

Personally, I do not like systems that go so abstract that they loose any feal of realism. Big example: D&D - in just about any form - you are totally fine until you take the one hit that drops you, way too unreal for me. Yes, you can be stratched then hit so well that you drop, but not everytime! In all of the various dangerous situations that the characters will get into, many times they will get hurt so that they will have limitations on what they can do. (Just a pet peeve, sorry for the rant.)

I would say that even in Spell Law much of the description is based on how they imagine it happening for real. A Fire Bolt streaking across the battlefield and boiling a warrior's flesh off while melting his plate armor. Things we all know fire capable of doing. It is just the delivery system that is fantasy.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I totally agree here; we live in the real world so everything we draw from is from the real world. Gravity makes you fall - unless you use a spell or other power to counter act gravity (real, then fantasy)

Yeah, that. No matter how far off the deep end the GM goes in designing his setting, it's a near certainty that dropped objects fall toward the ground at 32'/sec/sec, it's a near certainty that you're on a planet with a nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, it's a near certainty that the most common liquid is water, it's a near certainty that the world you are on orbits a G2 yellow dwarf star, it's a near certainty that you, your fellow party members, and the vast majority of the monsters you face are all carbon based lifeforms, etc. Not that the GM is likely to have *decided* such things, chances are he never thought about them at all. A world setting that changes even one of these basics tends to be thought of as "very different", and I don't think I've ever seen a setting in which all 5 of the above were changed. To be fair, there are many SF scenarios in which you aren't on a planet at all, or spend *some* time in places where one or more of the above is changed, sure. But how many scenarios, even in SF settings, are based on the premise that the major characters' species evolved in an environment where few or none of the above are true? Chances are that even in such settings, the players' "home base" is a place where most, if not all, of the above apply.

All but a vanishingly small percentage of world settings are earthlike worlds dressed up in new clothes. In light of that, to deliberately ignore real world effects when designing chargen/skill/magic/action mechanics for an RPG strikes me as simply irrational.

[rdanhenry]

Using terms with no real world meaning is not a useful way to talk about matters of realism. That is what I claimed and that is what I stand by. I have no objection to discussions of realism (although it should be noted that they are generally useful only in the most general terms and any research done on the Arms Law tables was largely a waste, given that there has been endless debate about the realism of combat compared with Arms Law). We pretty much can agree that bigger weapons hit harder -- beyond that, even actual experts tend to argue.

By the way, "the proficiency of a level 1 fighter" means something in D&D. It means nothing in either the real world or in Rolemaster, especially in RMSS/FRP, where Profession bonuses are not level-based. Conflating experience level with combat ability is D&D thinking not Rolemaster thinking. A Rolemaster character can be very high level without much combat effectiveness simply by not developing ranks in combat-related skills.

[Jenkyna]

Well my D&D experience may predate proficiency. I used the original redish box set, and the AD&D 1st edition rulebooks, and that was about 20 years ago. In point of fact it was at a Con and I was the only one at the table with a 1st edition chracter. 

[Temujin]

And Players are the ULTIMATE plot device.

I disagree.  PC's are meant to unravel the plot, not act as a plot device.  I might have a plot device murdered, or possessed, or crippled with no cure, or whatever, but never a PC.  Players get to determine thier PC's fate.  If that is not so, then at the game I'll just bring a 12 pack, some pizza and sit there while you just TELL me the story.  That should take maybe 20 minutes, then we can all do something fun.

PCs are not meant to unravel the plot, they just happen to do so.  PCs are meant to be the central element of the story.  Whether they unravel a story-driven plot, or drive the story themselves depends from games to games, the important thing is that the game is (as you note) fun.  Personally, I got tired of stories that have railroads with obstacles in it to be overcome over the years.  If in the middle of a story, my character decides to stop going for the evil badguy in a moment of selfdoubt and instead relocate to a place he deems safer to settle down for a while, or whatever, I expect my GM to roll with the punches.  Mind you, its not for all games.  Party games tend to be more suited to constant adventuring lifestyles, and are easier to railroad because one player should not hijack everyone's storyline.  Solo or duo games (where there is 1 or 2 players, even games with only 3) tend to be easier to morph into a different shape over time though, and its one of the reason I prefer small groups more and more.

[Jenkyna]

I have to admit that when I ran games I really tended to have a core group of 3 players, and then a few sometime extra's. Among other things it made it easier to mix things up when needed.

[vroomfogle]

Maybe Elves who have had a very tough life can regress so to speak. To do so they meditate and forget many things. So in effect they can lose levels by the act of forgetting. The only problem I see with this is the losing of Body Dev Points but then again a lot of the PC "hits" can be thought of as the PC's ability to just power on and not let little cuts and scrapes bother them.
 [I think someone said the same thing above OOO So Long Ago.]

MDC 

I had brought this up some time ago, perhaps even earlier in this thread.   It was based on a couple sentences hinting at the elven thought pattern from Shadowstone.

Elven brains are similar in size to humans and do have a finite capacity.   Memory fades just as with humans except even more so with the passage of very long times.   However, even just a fading memory is not enough.  The elven brain must actually purge some memories in order to make space for new ones.

In game terms, this means elves do lose levels over time.   The beauty of this approach is that you needn't treat an elven PC any different than a human PC.  They can advance just as quickly.   Except over time (and elves also tend to go through long periods of "downtime") they lose levels, starting with the oldest ones obviously.   Therefore for an old elf his "Adolescence/Apprenticeship" development is not actually his adolescence, but rather represents the things that he remembers before level 2.

[markc]

Vroomfogle,
 Using your idea even if it is from Shadowstone in a RPG game would be great but I just hope the player has kepted good records so the GM knows just what skills are to be lost.

[I almost fealt like using face but resisted the urge.]

MDC