Author Topic: So..  (Read 29211 times)

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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #100 on: November 18, 2018, 11:16:01 AM »
I suspect that there are people who adventure in Shadow World but do not play RM.

It would be worth considering drip feeding key SW NPC stats, created for RMU and sending it/them as complimentary PDFs to everyone on the OBS mailing list that has ever bought a SW book.

That may just make people curious about this new edition. That would also reach people who are not registered on these forums.

I agree that SW is a great setting for RMU but I do much prefer something much more iconic that will grab the eye and the imagination.

If it were my responsibility to launch such a thing then I would create a QS based upon Boudicca and the Iceni. No need for magic, no need for monsters. What you do get would be a chopped down Arms and Character Law, Celtic warriors and centurion. For those that buy into the idea you can go for an expanded RMU powered game with a limited spell law for the Druids and Roman Seers. You could expand the basic bestiary with more native Britton animals and Roman imports like war elephants and lions.

That concept is easy to manage just with content from C&AL which is also the most mature of all the book in terms of testing.

If the powers that be like that idea they can have it for free.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: So..
« Reply #101 on: November 18, 2018, 11:18:28 AM »
I think RMX was a step in the right direction.  However, to attract new players, I think the free/cheap starter pack (pre-gen PC's; starting scenario; basic ruleset) is a must.  I would lean toward the free myself; as more people are likely to at least download the package and check it out.

I recently got my hands on the latest version of Vampire: The Requium (5th edition) Starter Pack.  That's exactly what it is.  Some pre-gen PC's; an interesting setting with a starting scenario that would be easy to expand upon into a full campaign (either via official modules a GM could purchase or for the GM to develop themselves) & a quick guide to the basics of the ruleset so that you can get a group up & running with little effort.  I've played V:tR in the past & was curious about the new edition.  But I think the adventure scenario is what grabbed my attention the most.

RPG's are often compared to living novels.  A good novel is all about story.  What is the story RM is trying to tell?  I'm not sure, there's been so many over the years (Middle Earth; Shadow World; Cyradon; SM Imperium; SM Privateers; Cyberspace; Robin Hood; Mythic Egypt; Ancient Greece; Vikings; Arabian Nights; Ancient Rome; Dark Space; Time Raiders; 17th Century France; 17th Century Pirates; Shades Of Darkness & Time Raiders - never mind all the homebrew worlds all the other GMs have been using since the 80's!).  Again, one could compare to D&D (Dragonlance; Forgotten Realms; Ravenloft; Dark Sun; etc…), but I really think we have to stop doing that.  Do we really want to simply follow D&D's lead, or do we want to follow our own unique path?

That was the successful formula for RM in the early days.  It was an unique alternative to the game that started it all & it won a lot of fans because of its uniqueness.  In fact, many of us are still here touting the merits of RM a few decades later.  So maybe its time to be innovative again.  It definately wouldn't hurt.

Just my thoughts, take 'em for what they're worth & keep rolling 66's  :)

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Keep in mind, though, that most of the source books were dual-stated for another system (Hero if I remember right), and I think many of them were originally done for that system and RM was added as an afterthought. And the majority of them also were just tossed out there with no real support or follow-through.

Frankly, the RM engine is just too robust and flexible to be tied to one genre. You've got authors willing and able to work in those other genres, and many of said genres are in dire need of a solid, more simulationist engine. But it also needs to be the engine, with adjustments made for specific genres. That might mean licensing, but I think that will be the best way to get the engine out to a wider audience.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2018, 03:40:39 PM »
I don't know the legal hurdles it would require, but almost starting over, doing what the original RM materials did (stand-alone add-ons like Spell Law) and providing instructions on how to weave it into D&D.  There's your road to relevance again (looking at the bigger picture).
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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2018, 04:22:52 PM »
I don't know the legal hurdles it would require, but almost starting over, doing what the original RM materials did (stand-alone add-ons like Spell Law) and providing instructions on how to weave it into D&D.  There's your road to relevance again (looking at the bigger picture).

The difficulty is that back in the 80s RM was new, radical and exciting. Now it is run of the mill. Criticals systems like RM's are common, skills are so common they are core to D&D. The modular flexibility of RM is positively dwarfed by what is available from DMGuild.

I don't develop for DnD because it is virtually impossible to get noticed amongst all the noise. There were 65 new releases this week alone from a mountain of free and pay what you want to official supplements for Eberron and multi-hundred page unofficial supplements such as a herbalism and alchemy supplement I noticed this week for $10.

What I am suggesting is that the market is very different today than it was 40+ years ago.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2018, 04:50:53 PM »
I don't know, Spell Law was the first thing we integrated into D&D due to it's detail and diversity.

Still, the overall point is a large portion of the RPG customer base stems from D&D. Get that crowd interested, like old RM did, and I think the chances of success are infinitely improved.
- Cory Magel

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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: So..
« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2018, 08:06:49 PM »
I don't know, Spell Law was the first thing we integrated into D&D due to it's detail and diversity.

Still, the overall point is a large portion of the RPG customer base stems from D&D. Get that crowd interested, like old RM did, and I think the chances of success are infinitely improved.

Perhaps, but there's another market lurking out there: FPS types and those graduating from Rockstar's sandbox games. With minimal investment the RM engine can appeal to them, and possibly lure them into tabletop gaming.

I get that most people here are wedded to fantasy gaming to the possible exclusion of all else, but it's not the only market in town. If RM wants to stand out as an engine, it has to stand on its flexibility. And the ability to move from fantasy to modern to scifi and who knows what else is something it and GURPS share. Why not accentuate that instead of a modular system that Peter points out isn't really unique anymore?
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #106 on: November 18, 2018, 09:39:46 PM »
Agreed, and stat out a group of RM-iconic PCs like the ones on the front of old RM book covers and show level progression @1st, 5th and 20th lvl.

3/3.5 and Paizo’s 3.75 did that and drew the eye to their books as those same characters show up on each cover time and again.
It got me to buy/collect some of ‘em.  Great non-linguistic marketing!

Love that idea!

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2018, 09:52:49 PM »
I don't know, Spell Law was the first thing we integrated into D&D due to it's detail and diversity.

Still, the overall point is a large portion of the RPG customer base stems from D&D. Get that crowd interested, like old RM did, and I think the chances of success are infinitely improved.

Perhaps, but there's another market lurking out there: FPS types and those graduating from Rockstar's sandbox games. With minimal investment the RM engine can appeal to them, and possibly lure them into tabletop gaming.

I get that most people here are wedded to fantasy gaming to the possible exclusion of all else, but it's not the only market in town. If RM wants to stand out as an engine, it has to stand on its flexibility. And the ability to move from fantasy to modern to scifi and who knows what else is something it and GURPS share. Why not accentuate that instead of a modular system that Peter points out isn't really unique anymore?

You're right about that.  As for Rockstar & Sandbox stuff; my kid & all his friends seem to live & breathe Fortnite (I personally don't see the appeal - tho I spent many hours playing Wolfenstein 3D & Doom back in the day).  They're in Grade 6 (11 years old) & they approach it like me & my friends approached/talked about RPGs (specifically RM) back in high school 25+ years ago.  The big video games all seem to be pseudo-modern shoot-em-outs with settings that draw upon post-apocalypse-like situations.  Perhaps we need to look at this sort of setting (Cyberspace's Death Valley Free Prison & RMSS's Shades Of Darkness might be starting points for such a setting.

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2018, 10:46:09 PM »
Perhaps, but there's another market lurking out there: FPS types and those graduating from Rockstar's sandbox games. With minimal investment the RM engine can appeal to them, and possibly lure them into tabletop gaming.
I'm skeptical anyone will make much headway with that crowd without a well known licensed tie in like RM gained with LOTR or others did with Star Wars.
- Cory Magel

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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: So..
« Reply #109 on: November 19, 2018, 04:49:45 AM »
Although I agree with the idea of a license I think the real underlying issue is that ICE does not have an IP of their own.  The new version of RM has been a long time in the works and the material is a bunch of math and tables.  You can't own that.  ICE needs products that they have exclusivity to.  Those years of math and table development need to be woven into a creative property like SW or Cyradon and introduced to the gaming market- even if it's for a short time while a newer property is being developed.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2018, 09:45:36 AM »
Perhaps, but there's another market lurking out there: FPS types and those graduating from Rockstar's sandbox games. With minimal investment the RM engine can appeal to them, and possibly lure them into tabletop gaming.
I'm skeptical anyone will make much headway with that crowd without a well known licensed tie in like RM gained with LOTR or others did with Star Wars.

I honestly do not think that ICE have the financial resources to pull off a tie in like that.

From a marketing point of view ICE have three assets.
The first is something called publisher points or PPP. These are awarded by OneBookShelf on a basis of 10 + 1 per $10 worth of goods sold each month. So ICE have sold something like $70,000 worth of products and taking time into account should have somewhere in the region of 7000-8000 PPP. They can spend PPP to make any eventual product 'Deal of the day' on the PBS network of sites at a cost of about 450PPP per day. So they could feature for about 15 days. I would scatter that so the feature does not just become invisible wallpaper. That should drive some sales and that should generate some more PPP which can buy more on site advertising. PPP are free and ICE should be sat on a significant pile of them.

The second asset is their own brand name. You could trot Nicholas and to some extent Kevin out to give blog interviews and talk about RMU and Shadow World. You should not under estimate this. You should not under estimate the time it takes to build the goodwill of the bloggers or the influence they can exert. As an example of this, ICE has a long established game and a devoted community. Because ICE have only publicised the Beta 2 downloads to this community (despite it being a public playtest) the PDFs have been downloaded 138 times since June 11, 2015, nearly three and a half years. I am a single individual with a blog but I interact with other bloggers where I frequently comment on and engage with their content. The biggest names I work with are probably stargazer's world and take on rules. I also engage with the FAR system. Most of those you will have never heard of, which is sort of the point, I am a minnow in a small pool, no brand, no community. My own public playtest has been downloaded 195 times in four weeks. It is going to take time and effort to build public awareness again but if you want to appear like a giant of the games industry you need to make some noise. Trying to do that AFTER the product launch is a really bad idea as these things take time to build up and before you know it your game is no longer 'new' and other more publicity savvy publishers have stolen your moment with their own releases.

Finally, ICE have a very small war chest of cash reserves. If you want to pay for advertising on gaming sites or even get professionally written press releases to circulate then these all cost money. I normally allow 16 to 20 weeks lead time between engaging a PR agency and when I want the marketing to hit the presses or peoples screens.

Regarding licenses there is often more than one way to skin a cat.

If we take Tales from the Loop as an example or case study. It is widely regarded as as close to a Stranger Things rpg as you can get without having the TV programme title on the book. Stranger things first aired in July 2016, the full Tale from the Loop Rules were released in June 2017, just 11 months afterwards but also when ST was still at the peak of its popularity.

If one looks at RMU as a lot of lego brick sized blocks, each skill is a block, each weapon is a block, or profession is a block; one can have a whole box of blocks that can be used to build any system extremely quickly and all that is then needed is the prose to create the setting and style. The sort of thing I mean is... Netflix has bought the rights to a BBC series called The Bodyguard (nothing to do with Kevin Costner!). That is due to become a Netflix Original. So  by using the mix and match/lego brick approach one could put together an RPG where the PCs form part of a close protection unit against a world of politics and international intrigue. One could pillage/paraphrase the background material from wikipedia and imdb for the setting. The IMDB episode guide basically gives you an entire 6 step adventure you can use for 'inspiration' to build an adventure that would form the second half of the core rulebook. One could get "Specialist Protection - A contemporary RPG thriller against a backdrop of the Special Protection Branch of London's Metropolitan Police (powered by the Rolemaster Engine)." There is absolutely no reason not to get that together and and ready for launch in time to run alongside the Netflix release. In fact I think I could copy and paste most of it from HARP FS (I lost my SM books a few years ago in a house move) and create that game in a weekend. I would not need any of the Sci Fi professions, no sci fi skills, no spaceships or high tech gear, no psions, no alien races, no races at all as you can just build Human into everything. Strip back the combat to martial arts and guns. Copy and paste as much content as I can from wikipedia and IMDB and then put it all in my own words. The closest game to what I am describing here, currently on sale, is a supplement for Twilight2000 released in 2004. Basically you would get a Netflix tie in for free with a completely open and empty market place. Create the game and then get out there and tell everyone that "Specialist Protection is the game for everyone who loves The Bodyguard and wants to explore a world of Royalty and Specialist Protection." It will be the interviews and social media shares and quotes that create the web of bonds between the game and TV show. At no point do you say "this is the official game of..." but you can list the TV series as inspiration along with other series in the genre.

This is basically a rinse and repeat idea, as intothatdarkness says...
Quote
With minimal investment the RM engine can appeal to them, and possibly lure them into tabletop gaming.

A 'Generic' RPG ruleset has to be able to cope with everything and anything. A very specific RPG ruleset only has to deal with a very specific set of situations. It can therefore for smaller, only the skills and weapons that you will actually need, if you need magic then only the magic required for that specific cultural heritage. Everything that is not relevent can be discarded and when you do that then most of the hangover criticisms of RM, too big, too many options, too many charts and so on all disappear.
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Offline jdale

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Re: So..
« Reply #111 on: November 19, 2018, 10:40:24 AM »
>There is absolutely no reason not to get that together and and ready for launch in time to run alongside the Netflix release.

Except that someone has to write it. Being a shop of freelancers, I don't know that Nicholas can just task someone with writing a book on topic X. Someone has to want to do it.

That's not to say it can't happen or even that it's a bad idea, but I think it would have to happen as a result of someone being excited about that setting and personally enthusiastic about writing it, then pitching it to ICE.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #112 on: November 19, 2018, 11:13:09 AM »
>There is absolutely no reason not to get that together and and ready for launch in time to run alongside the Netflix release.

Except that someone has to write it. Being a shop of freelancers, I don't know that Nicholas can just task someone with writing a book on topic X. Someone has to want to do it.

That's not to say it can't happen or even that it's a bad idea, but I think it would have to happen as a result of someone being excited about that setting and personally enthusiastic about writing it, then pitching it to ICE.

And therein lies the problem. If I had so much as seen the programme and liked it I could write and release such a game in a matter of days and I wouldn't need ICE. What I was trying to illustrate is that to go from the Bland/Uninspiring/Generic RMU 'as written' to the Bang on trend/Evocative/Exciting game with its real world backdrop is the work of a weekend or maybe a week of evenings. In the process you end up with a much lighter ruleset as you only need what is required for that setting and most of the old criticisms do not apply.

Other things that happen if you think along these lines.
  • Games set in this world ONLY need A&CL.
  • ICE could release multiple games in rapid succession as single volume standalone games.
  • Each game can target a different interest group broadening the appeal of a traditionally fantasy only system to a much wider audience(s)
  • The most popular of these targeted games can be supported with adventures or supplements if the numbers suggest it is worthwhile.
  • These should be treated right from the start as 'fire and forget' or 'one egg per basket' games.
For ICE getting A&CL fixed and ready immediately gives them fast to market revenue streams and a supply of regular material suitable for press releases. Get the ICE brand out into the world as a company producing games.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: So..
« Reply #113 on: November 19, 2018, 01:59:36 PM »
Going more modular would also allow quicker releases of material. I've got three genre settings and rules more or less dying right now because nothing can be done until RMU is finalized in terms of core engine stuff. I'm sure others are facing the same issue. There ARE interested freelancers out there with material, but nothing can really happen until the final RMU (or whatever it ends up being called) comes out. As Peter points out, having just A&CL finalized would be a huge help for those of us working outside fantasy.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2018, 02:12:07 PM »
I'm not necessarily agreeing with the idea of setting-dependent publications, but if you were going to do that, I wonder if some of those old ICE setting books could be repurposed for RMU: e.g. Vikings, Mythic Greece, etc.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: So..
« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2018, 03:02:47 PM »
I am thinking one could run a bit of a fun competition. A month long RMU hack month where anyone could repurpose A&CL to produce a game, setting and customisation. The 'best'  three, as judged by Nicholas, get published as standalone games.
It would not be that different to NagaDemon which is running right now. I am taking part in a NagaDemon event where we have 1 month, November, to create a custom FUDGE game.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: So..
« Reply #116 on: November 19, 2018, 04:47:53 PM »
I'm not necessarily agreeing with the idea of setting-dependent publications, but if you were going to do that, I wonder if some of those old ICE setting books could be repurposed for RMU: e.g. Vikings, Mythic Greece, etc.

What I'm working on is more genre-specific than setting, and that's driven mainly by different Profession needs and conventions. But some of those old books are certainly good candidates. I'd say the Vikings one in particular, as it was less Hero-centric (in terms of the game system). The Pirates one was already somewhat skewed in that I think it was originally done for Heroes and then 'grafted' into RM. The Old West one was decent, but needs an entire redo of the firearm attack tables and crits (what I'm already doing for my genre stuff). The Egypt one was good as well, though I can't speak to specifics because I don't have that one any more.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #117 on: November 19, 2018, 05:31:14 PM »
The Mythic Greece one was also pretty cool, in that it allowed the players to have very high stats (as befits demigods), and high-stat abilities. I always thought that was kind of fun.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: So..
« Reply #118 on: November 19, 2018, 08:35:04 PM »
Funny Peter.  I was thinking the same thing; though I was still rolling a fantasy genre around at the time. 

My thought was there is surely enough of RMU completed that any of the folk here could put together a half dozen level 1 characters and develop a story to put them through their paces.  As for the creatures, spells etc....only use what is complete.  And if there is a divergence from the future core material -  will it really matter than much?

Maybe the developers should create a level 1 character each - and that would be the pool of pregens available? 
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #119 on: November 20, 2018, 11:58:58 AM »
I'm loving this discussion!  :)

There are enough of us out there who want ICE to succeed & to see RMU succeed that I think we're all willing to pitch in our talents to help out.  Peter's idea of one-off settings (with possible further modular support given sales) is a great one.  Using RMU as the foundation ties everything together.  The one thing I would caution is that this sort of scenario might spread resources even thinner.  If in a best case scenario, more of these "alternate lines" take off then what ICE & the community (i.e us, the freelancers producing the material) can support, then that is going to lead to other problems that may hurt ICE in the long run.  Just a devil's advocacy warning of caution, I guess.  But I do think it's a wonderful idea.

As such, I have a pseudo-Pulp world based on the real world of the 1930's & 40's that I was writing a story for.  The background story mechanics are all derived from RM2 (with some help from RMSS's Pulp Adventures), but could be converted to RMU.  I would love to develop that setting a bit more (which means I'd have to cool off my Nytheun Creative juices - which are flowing nicely at the moment  ;D ) & would be willing to contribute it to this sort of project.  It might flow well with intothedarkness' modern firearms ruleset he has modified from various past ICE publications - I've been using RMSS's Weapon Law: Firearms modified for the RM2 ruleset.

Again, I'd be willing to help out with such an endeavour if ICE was interested.

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