Topic: How many DP do you give per level?

[Spectre771]

RMC
I go by the book. No bonus DPs from me.

Ditto.  The skill costs and the maximum number of ranks per level are all calculated into established average DPs available at PC creation.  If all of the PCs suddenly have more DPs available to them than they should have, then all of the costs of the skills should go up as well to compensate.  It's like economics.  If the government suddenly gives everyone an extra $100,000 a year for no reason, then the economy is thrown out of balance.  Everyone can buy anything they want and the actual money is worth less, the cost for everything goes up to compensate.  A wheelbarrow of Italian Lira to buy a loaf of bread?

The beauty of RM is that you can choose to have a Jack-of-All-Trades with dozens of skills but rather mediocre at them, or you can focus on key skills and be excellent.  You can have a spell user focused solely on magic, with two spell lists per level (20 DP for guaranteed list and extra DP for a second list) but who really NEEDS others around him to help him survive and adventure, or you can have a spell user with two or three spell lists but can actually fend for himself in the adventuring world.  I love the fact that at PC creation, the player can choose to load the high value scores in the DP producing stats or he can put them in the stats that will impact the skills he will be using the most in gameplay: Good at what he does vs. good tool to have around.

By giving out the free DP, the balance goes out of whack and the PCs start to lose their uniqueness.  If everyone has enough DP to get every skill they want, we start to move towards cookie-cutter PCs.  It seems to me that it's just wanting more and more for free.  Everyone wants the more powerful PCs at the outset but no one wants to pay the price for it; higher DP costs.  I don't think thing giving free DPs is the answer. 

Ynglaur nailed it perfectly: Something I feel the original designers did very well is no one stat is dominant in all circumstances.  Need DB?  Get a high QU...but don't wear heavy armor.  Need PPs?  Focus on PR, IN, or EM.  Want to multi-cast, focus on PR and IN, or IN and EM, or PR and EM.  Need perception?  Focus in IN.  Need stealth?  Focus on SD.

Etc. etc.  I remember in Spacemaster feeling that EM was the weakest stat...until realizing that all of the medical skills used it.

Just look at all of the input we (the players) were able to contribute to the 1st Beta of RMU.  I'm sure a lot of that input is going be implemented in the 2nd Beta release and I'm sure that was at least this much effort in RM.  Look at the incarnations original RM had. RM1, RM2, RMC.   I will admit freely that I have very little playtime with RMSS, so much so that I won't even say I can have any qualified opinion on the PC creation and DP balance.

[Peter R]

Arrgh! Yellow text = bad!

[Spectre771]

Arrgh! Yellow text = bad!

Purple Text?

OK, seriously, what is the accepted convention?  I just wanted the text to stand out as someone else's quote.  Should it be orange?

[jdale]

OK, seriously, what is the accepted convention?  I just wanted the text to stand out as someone else's quote.  Should it be orange?

Bear in mind that the forum has two themes, one with a white background and one with dark gray. Yellow is perfectly readable on the dark gray, but it's probably difficult on white. Your "purple text" actually showed up as orange on the dark gray background, not sure how that worked.

I like just plain italics myself, that avoids the color issues.

[intothatdarkness]

Arrgh! Yellow text = bad!

Purple Text?

OK, seriously, what is the accepted convention?  I just wanted the text to stand out as someone else's quote.  Should it be orange?

You can also just dump it into a

quote box

and be done with it.

[tbigness]

I feel that PC's are more cookie cutter with restricted DP's using only 5 stats. Face it anyone who makes a fighter will look very similar due to stat placement and skills development due to critical skills (Body Development, Weapons and armor) with nothing left for crafting and lores. Having a few more points that is designed for secondary skill development will make characters more unique and diverse even though the primary class skills are similar.

For example make 10 fighters with the by the book DP and Stat generation and see what different characters you get with skill diversity.

Make 10 fighters with set DP at max (50 or 100 depending on system) with 10 to 20 points in secondary skills dedication and see what kind of fighter combinations you see with skill diversity.

In no way are they a jack of all trades but maybe can be more than a gladiator only kind of character with no lores or craft type of skills.

[gog]

In the games I'm in it's by the book DP's. But also three ranks in skills directly given as half level ranks (often Region Lore).

Also training packages along with talents and flaws help stop the cookie cutter effect. Along with adolescence ranks, and the "how on earth did you learn that?" question for some things.

[Spectre771]

Arrgh! Yellow text = bad!

Purple Text?

OK, seriously, what is the accepted convention?  I just wanted the text to stand out as someone else's quote.  Should it be orange?

You can also just dump it into a

quote box

and be done with it.

I don't know how to add the quote from a 2nd post when I've already hit quote to the initial post and it's at the top of my reply.  I just copy/paste the additional quotes and change the color to show that its not my words.  I tried deciphering the HTML coding associated with the quotes and quite honestly, I'll copy/paste.

" quote author=intothatdarkness link=topic=10949.msg194152#msg194152 date=1432047864"  with the added "/quote" is confusing as heck Then add nested quotes and trying to figure out the message ID number.... bleah.

[intothatdarkness]

It's fairly simple. To start the quoted section you put quote in brackets. To end the quoted section you put /quote in brackets. I just copy what I want and then surround it with those two commands. So...

I tried deciphering the HTML coding associated with the quotes and quite honestly, I'll copy/paste.

[Green Manalishi]

The original game was designed with DPs and without all those secondary skills. If no extra DPs are given, then primary skills costs should be reduced, not the other way around.

Not giving any extra DPs to round out the character will actually take away from primary skills or become cookie cutter, especially if using all the RoCoII skills and expecting the players to use them. Also encourages min/maxing


RMSS was designed for all the skills so no extra DPs needed there.

[Spectre771]

It's fairly simple. To start the quoted section you put quote in brackets. To end the quoted section you put /quote in brackets. I just copy what I want and then surround it with those two commands. So...

I tried deciphering the HTML coding associated with the quotes and quite honestly, I'll copy/paste.

Oh geez. that's so much easier!  Thank you.   

I could never figure out how people did several quotes from several different posts all within one.

[Spectre771]

The original game was designed with DPs and without all those secondary skills. If no extra DPs are given, then primary skills costs should be reduced, not the other way around.

Not giving any extra DPs to round out the character will actually take away from primary skills or become cookie cutter, especially if using all the RoCoII skills and expecting the players to use them. Also encourages min/maxing


RMSS was designed for all the skills so no extra DPs needed there.

We've never had a problem with the cookie cutter PC with the given DP formula.  Take the Fighter example that was used.  Once the primary "bread and butter" skills are taken (weapon 1, weapon 2, armour, Body Dev, Stunned Man., etc.) there were enough DP left over to pick from the dozens of secondary skills, to give the PC unique flavor.  And there is where I see the cookie cutter disappearing even more.  With say 30 secondary skills to choose from... you would need to make 31 fighters before you saw a duplicate "cookie."  It sounds like that you're also going under the assumption that 10 fighters also miraculously rolled the same 10 stat rolls and Stat potential rolls and have the exact same stats across the board.

Don't forget, even while it's cost prohibitive, magic skills are still an option for the fighter.  We had one level 5 fighter who knew 1 spell list to level 5.  He spent the 20DP at level 1 and just made a spell gain roll each time he leveled up and got lucky one time with a 96 dice roll.

Add to that, the 10 stats RM has.  Those stats will also effect other skills and make the Fighter better/worse at some skills, primary and secondary.  Selecting secondary skills that take advantage those good stats adds yet more variation. 

As the PC levels up, there is diminishing returns on the Rank value.  5, 2, 1, 0.5 depending on the optional rule you use and Body Dev stops being useful once you reach Racial Max +CO Bonus, so no need to spend DP there.  The fighter at Level 4 may decide that the 10 ranks in Weapon 2 is enough, now those DPs are freed up for more secondary skills adding even more flair to a PC.

Is the system perfect? Not for everyone.  Does it have weak spots? Of course.  Is it as constricting as "6 stat, 1D20, no DP" system?  Nooooooooo.

[Peter R]

I don't use all those added skills from the RoCos either so the by the book DPs go further.

I feel that PC's are more cookie cutter with restricted DP's using only 5 stats. Face it anyone who makes a fighter will look very similar due to stat placement and skills development due to critical skills (Body Development, Weapons and armor) with nothing left for crafting and lores. Having a few more points that is designed for secondary skill development will make characters more unique and diverse even though the primary class skills are similar.

For example make 10 fighters with the by the book DP and Stat generation and see what different characters you get with skill diversity.

Make 10 fighters with set DP at max (50 or 100 depending on system) with 10 to 20 points in secondary skills dedication and see what kind of fighter combinations you see with skill diversity.

In no way are they a jack of all trades but maybe can be more than a gladiator only kind of character with no lores or craft type of skills.

In more than 30 years of making characters with 'by the book DPs' we have never experienced what you are describing.

[tbigness]

The example that I make is for very similar cookie cutter skills for each fighter developed regardless of stats and bonuses. There is only a limited number of DP's to spread out to the Professional important skills especially as lower levels and they resemble the same skills as each other. Not much flavor for the bang so to speak. Too many skills to by pass due to expense and not enough DP's. Simple knowledge skills like (region lore, Spell, Undead, racial, fauna, flora ect...), Alertness skills (combat awareness, direction sense, ect...), Crafing, Technical skills (first aid, gambling, tactics, sailing, Ect...). One can have normal combat skills but will lack flare as not investing in things they come across as a character that needs some attention. These are also very good roleplaying skills that PC's can invest in to round out their characters.

Just saying, I know my Players have more fun with these features. 

[intothatdarkness]

I've never seen this, either, but that is likely a function of differences between gaming groups.

We did extra DPs for Secondary Skills based on the RM2 suggestion. Since they can only be used on Secondary Skills I don't see it as impacting balance (and since we use secondary skills I think it's only fair that DPs exist for them). It's a small pool for a lot of skills, so bonuses tend to be low as a result. Also, we reworked and weeded skills fairly heavily.

[Peter R]

Fair enough. It is very much a case of what works for each GM and what you are used to.

Out of interest here are the bare nuts and bolts concept of 10 fighters as you suggested. Each implies a particular style of fighter and each could be bought with only a minority of a 1st level characters DPs by the book and leave enough for perception, body development and other skills.

• two weapon combo with broadsword and shield bash plus plate armour.
• two weapon combo with martial arts and katana plus chain or soft leather armour.
• two weapon combo with shortsword and knife in hand and thrown plus tumble attack and adr.mv speed.
• two weapon combo with quarterstaff fighting with each end plus longbow but no armour.
• two weapon combo with trident and net plus plate armour AT17.
• two weapon combo with two broadswords plus tumble attack and adr.mv strength.
• Plate AT17, shortsword, big old shield and pilum as a thrown weapon.
• Battle Axe, frenzy and no armour or maybe AT5 leather jerkin.
• Spear, Shield and AT20 and lace up sandles.
• War Mattock, Plate AT 20 and frenzy

[tbigness]

The examples you give are what I was talking about.

Weapon, Armor, Combat Manuever, Body Development:  Are the main DP usage with very few others for skill in lore, craft, Technical or communication skills. So having extra DP beyond the book say 10 points will make them more diverse and more fun to play. Most players will get up to around 90 in RMSS later in levels anyway so giving 90 to 100 DP standard is not a big deal... Or giving 50 points in RMC for that matter.

[Peter R]

But the concepts in the list use less that half the characters DPs anyway, there is enough in the pot to build the character you want to play. You may not be able to do everything at first level but that is what levelling up is all about, letting the character evolve naturally as you grow into the game world.

I get the feeling that if you are a by the book person then 100DPs feels like you must all have 1st level do everything supermen.

If you are used to 100DPs then buy the book 35DPs must seem really restrictive.

It is just a matter of what we are all used to.

[tbigness]

It depends on the Game System in use. I have gone by the book for most of my 34 gaming years and still found it restrictive. I eventually gave players free ranks in certain knowledge skills pertaining to the background of the character, where they live and things they should know in those areas not covered in adolescent ranks. again not much and only at first level. I felt that this enhanced the play ability of knowledge in the home area. The rest was by the book. This gave me the GM background for character knowledge in the home region of the character. The thought that others were doing 90-100 off the bat as standard does have an appeal to me.

[yammahoper]

But the concepts in the list use less that half the characters DPs anyway, there is enough in the pot to build the character you want to play. You may not be able to do everything at first level but that is what levelling up is all about, letting the character evolve naturally as you grow into the game world.

I get the feeling that if you are a by the book person then 100DPs feels like you must all have 1st level do everything supermen.

If you are used to 100DPs then buy the book 35DPs must seem really restrictive.

It is just a matter of what we are all used to.

100 dev points a level is a different beast when plying a thief versus a mage.  A mage will eat up 49 dev in developing five list 3 lvls and one rank in pp dev.  This pace of development allows a pure spell user to maintain 15 spell list to level (but 64 dev is spent every 3rd level of development to hand the five open/close list).  The 41 dev points left can't cover everything Alertness is 6, perception is at least 4 more, directed spell a minimum of four more...the points go fast).  A thief will be much better rounded with maybe even a few dev points to save for use during play.

But I have never seen 100 dev a level make unstoppable monster PC's.   Besides, dev based on stats creates a arms race.  Everybody NEEDS high stats for the dev AND notto be punished in skill totals.  Divorcing the two allows players to be low health, wimpy, clumsy, stupid, absent minded hedonist without being double and triple punished for plying a PC with low stats.