Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: butscharoni on May 26, 2010, 03:44:45 AM
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Hi all!
I got some problems with the RM Magic System and would like to get some input from you on that. Maybe the system just is not for me, but it may also be, I am just using it wrong.
Problem is, when creating just a mage, it works great. I can sit there and look over the spell lists and it's hard to decide which of these cool spells to get.
But when I try to create a mage of whom I already have a vague concept in mind, it all falls apart and I can't find lists that will cut it.
First thing are the realms: Often, I cannot find all the spells I would need for my concept in a single realm or even at all. At first, the separation looks nice, but I also noticed that when looking into additional material like the express additions or companions, there are often new professions present that will do what I was thinking of. So does this mean, whenever I can't fit a character concept to the magic system I have to create a new profession with new base lists? Also, these new professions seem sometimes to duplicate lists from other realms, so I start wondering, what the distinction of the realms is really for.
My second problem are the lists themselves. Many spells on them are just duplicates of one another with slightly modified range/power. Also, there are many holes. So it seems to me, if I would want to create a master magician of fire for example, he would need to be level 50 at least, but while being that ha would have gone many levels without learning something new and considering his power, he would know not really many spells and could not accomplish what I would expect from such a powerful mage (For example, setting a whole wood on fire or raising a volcano).
I can see, that when playing the character to the corresponding level, that might be not so much of a problem, but when looking at such a character from some distance, at least to me, he does not look really satisfying.
So, how do you deal with the magic system especially when creating higher level characters or trying to emulate a specific Type of wizard? Care to share your thought and maybe some ideas on how to get it more to work like I want it to or maybe what I am doing wrong?
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Imho it takes some getting aquainted with the system before you can really go crazy.
If you use some of the options availabe that will make the magicians much more versatile. You will even be able to learn spells cross realm. It'll cost more but it'll be possible.
Doing magic of legendary proportions demand a mage of legendary power/level. If you can't find it in the first 50 levels, maybe it's a lv 75 spell? Maybe it's just never been thought of? There are rules for spell research. As the GM you can have your magician researching whatever you think is proper and needed. As a player you need the GM's approval and time. Or some powerful artefacts... ;)
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Have you taken a look at HARP? The magic system is much more fluid, has scalable spells, a lot more versatility.
Additionally, in one of the EA's, 3 alternate "meta-classes" were offered, with the concept of spell folios, allowing you to build the perfect mage, if you're dead set on RM.
As for myself, I choose to go realm-less. Magic is magic is magic, IMO. I will work with players to assemble a character that works for a given concept.
More and more, I find it easier to modify HARP than to work within the restrictions of RM. It's definitely geared to a higher-end power level, but that works for my group.
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1) You as the GM can do many things such as; adjust the spell lists to your campaign; but be careful of power balance.
2) As to your ideas of a Mage or what a Mage should be:
a) This can be game specific such as a Mage from D20 is vastly different from a Mage from WoD.
b) You can adjust the DP cost for skills but again be careful of power balance.
3) You do not need to create a new profession for every concept but you can adapt concepts to the RM system.
4) Can you give us an example of an idea you want to make in RM.
5) RMX has a limited number of professions and more can be added from the EA's and if I were to guess I expect some more to be released in the future as well.
6) Spells:
a) Yes some spells are in every realm as they are IMO common magic.
b) There are also some spells unique to each realm.
c) Also another big thing is the rank a spell is available.
d) What I do is allow a caster to make there own spells for the holes above 30th level but with in the power level of the list.
e) The raise a volcano or light a large area on fire I think is a level 75th spell which might be found in the Rolemaster Companion I.
Does that help?
MDC
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I think it is the GMs job to say what professions have what kind of spells in his game. At the root of it Spell Law is "setting specific" to a kind of vague Tolkien inspired fantasy world. If you have a personal setting that need a different flavor of spell users compared to this then you need to make a choice about how large differences there are.
At one extreme you have the option to create new spell lists with desired mix of spells, in the middle you have the option to swap baselists between professions and bring in spell lists from companions, at the other extreme you buy the Harp book Collage of Magic and port it to Rolemaster to get a flat build-your-own-spell-system.
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Something I just thougt of after reading this: In RM the default "magic-user" type class is the Magician who is basically an elementalist. Now, that might work in some worlds but certainly not all. How easy is it to swap spell lists arpund without affecting balance? For example, I replace all the Magician's current laws with six other closed lists and move the elemental laws to the closed lists. What kind of impact would that have?
jolt
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IMO, Base lists are more powerful than open and closed lists so IMO it would affect the game balance for Essence Users.
But if you have the Essence Comp for RMSS/FRP you can use the spell lists in there that are close to the base Magician lists but less powerful. You can also take a look at the RMSS/FRP Elemental Companion for spell lists that are elemental in mature.
Also you could just use the Magician's DP costs and create new spell lists that fit your idea of the new profession.
What idea are you trying to model?
MDC
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Something I just thougt of after reading this: In RM the default "magic-user" type class is the Magician who is basically an elementalist. Now, that might work in some worlds but certainly not all. How easy is it to swap spell lists arpund without affecting balance? For example, I replace all the Magician's current laws with six other closed lists and move the elemental laws to the closed lists. What kind of impact would that have?
You basically want to get Express Additions #9. It h as a couple of new professions where you create specific Folios for them, and then they choose their base lists from that Folio.
For example, you could create two rival magic schools, and each school gets it own Folio (some spell lists overlap, but most don't). People from each school are the same profession, but they get to choose their base lists and so this makes them unique within that profession
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Thanks all for the interesting and insightful comments!
Reading your answers, I once again have to remind myself, that Rolemaster is more of a toolkit than a game. I actually know this, but seem to forget. :-) But maybe I am interpreting this wrong, but is nobody of you playing the magic system by the book? While I can see the merit of changing to your liking, I am also a bit confused why the system is what it is if nobody uses it in this form.
The main reason I asked was because I was thinking of trying some writing and stating up some characters for that and wondered how I would go about this. But now I wonder if it even makes sense in a system like Rolemaster, where every group uses their own set of rules and probably has to recreate the character anyway to fit him in. How could one go about writing a setting without the need to create his own rulebook/spells?
While I love the flexibility of RM, this seems to me again a win for HARP, which can do many magic systems without needing a heavy rules change that makes games incompatible. The Folio concept sounds really nice, though. I will look into that.
Also an interesting question: Since you say RM spell selection is targeted to a specific kind of setting, are there other spell laws for different fantasy flavors out there? If not, why? Sounds reasonable to me, to have one for high fantasy, one for sword & sorcery etc.
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I've used the magic system as written many times before with setting that we built as we went and such, but right now I'm looking more and more at gutting it since I'm hoping to use RMSS for Warhammer Fantasy (tired of campaigns where character become stronger as deamons and capping out). Well that and I really dislike the new edition.
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The magic system I use pretty much by the RAW it's just that the Magician doesn't really meet my idea of the generic wizard type; especially in my homebrew. It's more of a class thing than a magic system thing. I've also been having issues with the entire concept of the semi-spell user but that's a whole different topic.
Rasyr, will that Express #9 info be included in the upcoming Spell Law 2? I admit that I don't really care for PDF's; I'd much rather have the info in book format. Or, perhaps a better question, when I buy Spell Law 2 (even though I'm playing SS) what Express Additions whould I look to pick up as certain info won't be in Spell Law 2? Thanks.
jolt
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Rasyr, will that Express #9 info be included in the upcoming Spell Law 2?
Yes, that stuff will be in Spell Law 2
Currently (SL2 hasn't hit editing yet), if it isn't already in the core of RMC, and it deals specifically with magic, then it is in SL2.
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Can you tell us what books you have? And what idea you are trying to create?
Because in there are RMSS/FRP professions in the books below:
Essence Companion:
1) Warrior Mage
2) Rune Mage
3) Mana Molder
Mentalisim Companion:
1) Arms Master
2) Seer
3) Astrologer
4) Enchanter
Channeling Companion
1) Summoner
2) Warlock
3) Mythic
4) Specialty Priests
5) Other options for Channeling Professions [ie how to create you own]
Martial Arts Companion [MAC]:
1) Tao Monk
2) Zen Monk
3) Warrior Monk
4) Adapting the other professions to use the MAC rules
Treasure Companion:
1) Professions for creating magic items, ie Alchemists
And Of Course there are professions in the School of Hard Knocks and The Elemental Companion: Fire and Ice. I just got tired of looking them up.
Are any of those what you are looking for?
MDC
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But maybe I am interpreting this wrong, but is nobody of you playing the magic system by the book? While I can see the merit of changing to your liking, I am also a bit confused why the system is what it is if nobody uses it in this form.
I think it is fairly true that most gaming groups use Spell Law as it is and then swap in only those things that must be fixed. In my case the customization is mostly using all spell lists in companions but removing some spell lists that doesn't match the setting.
I think the general opinion is that RM is a game when you are expected to change those things that you don't like, but it is advised to really think about if change is necessary since experience tell RM and Spell Law is valid in very many classic settings. Wheel of Time and the Belgarion books are examples of settings that does not match Spell Law well, but these kind of settings are the exception rather than the norm in my experience.
While I love the flexibility of RM, this seems to me again a win for HARP, which can do many magic systems without needing a heavy rules change that makes games incompatible.
Depends on your perspective, I would most certainly argue that it is more easy to customize RMs list concept to a setting. Quite easy to screw up balance wise, but without question it requires less rules changes to get the work done.
Those areas when RM lists will not work is mostly freeform magic settings like Wheel of Time when each spell casting is a spell research on your own and settings when the player get a very free choice of what spells to have and how to use them. HARP is in my opinion a solution on the later since you in this system get a more limited set of spells but are able to custom them to be used in very many different ways. You get a system with great flexbility for the player, but that is quite hard to customize into something that enforce a particular setting.
Also an interesting question: Since you say RM spell selection is targeted to a specific kind of setting, are there other spell laws for different fantasy flavors out there? If not, why? Sounds reasonable to me, to have one for high fantasy, one for sword & sorcery etc.
Mostly I think it is about how RM is, or at least should be, organized. It is a modular toolkit when you switch things to your liking. Having different flavors of Spell Law would also mean that many parts would be rehashes of the same material.
The RM way is that you are given one Spell Law that includes the set of spells that has seen most field use in gaming groups and then you get support books that can be used to make your customized Spell Law. The elemental companion Fire & Ice does for instance give spells that include the aspect of elemental corruption. It is a pretty cool idea, but clearly not something that fit every setting.
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As a GM using the old RM2 I have always sat down with a player and talked about what kind of character they would like and then try to shape them into that image. If possible I try to shape them using the realms and lists are they are, but sometimes I swap lists from other realms or even make a character a different realm. Other than that we use Spell Law as written with some options.
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With RMSS/FRP, Talents can help cover character concepts that don't fit the system defaults. But again, without specific characters to discuss, it's hard to say where and what the issue actually is. It could be a limit in the system (all magic systems have their assumptions, unless they're pure kits like HERO), or it could just be a failure to recognize how to do exactly what you want with the tools available.
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We use Spell Law as written with some options.
However when a charcter concept demands something special we bodge something togeather.
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While I foremost use the principles behind the SL system, I don't tie spell lists to a realm (so you have Open, Closed and Base but each are part of all Realms) and I create new professions as needed, by tweaking skill costs, giving skill bonus, and giving or creating spell lists to fit any profession concept I have in mind.
Those areas when RM lists will not work is mostly freeform magic settings like Wheel of Time when each spell casting is a spell research on your own and settings when the player get a very free choice of what spells to have and how to use them.
The former works very well IMO if you use the "Spell Shaping" concept from the SUC.
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[...]
The former works very well IMO if you use the "Spell Shaping" concept from the SUC.
What is "Spell Shaping"?
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RM2 product Spell User Companion had a section in it called Spell Shaping. In short, it was a pre-Arcane method of casting spells.
It cost huge amounts of power points, but didn't require that you know any specific spell lists.
For example, to cast a 3rd level spell off of an Open Spell List from your realm, it would cost something like 10PP for it being an Open List, and then another 10 PP per level of the spell.
It cost a lot of PP, but it allowed the casting of any spell on any list from any realm, and only required the single skill (Spell Shaping) to use (there were a number of options that went with it as well).
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RM2 product Spell User Companion had a section in it called Spell Shaping. In short, it was a pre-Arcane method of casting spells.
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what is "Arcane" ?
thanks you in adcance :-)
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Arcane -- one theory says that "arcane magic" is the magic from before it was codified into the three realms.
Another says that is basically a type of "omni-realm" magic, spell lists that are slightly more powerful and dangerous, but that are learned equally easily by all three realms.
So, for Spell Shaping, Arcane is basically magic before the 3 realms, and spell shaping was pre-arcane -- think of it like a timeline...
first came spell shaping
then came arcane (individual flexible spells -- kinda like harp)
then came spell lists (safer, and easier to learn/cast)
then came the three realms (safer and easier to learn/cast again)
then came hybrids (combining realms for additional power)
then came omni-realm (classed as arcane again because it combines all 3 realms)
At least that is how I like to think of it... ;D
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I would say Arcane is pretty much the word used to describe "spell user not limited by the realm division". There are a number of ideas of how this can be realized as a rule mechanic.
The RMSS system implemented this as a super realm that had more powerful spells, but more nasty spell casting rules.
The RM2 companions did give access to just about any spell list to the arcane spell user. The Spell Users Companion that OLF talk about is also RM2, but have even more advanced (and less play tested) ways to break out of the realm harness.
If you dig around on the forum you should find plenty of discussions about what Arcane should be (if not these discussions has disappeared when we have switched forum software).
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Here (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=9456.0)'s a good starting point.
Anyway, so, for my part, I use Spell Shaping, added to spell lists, added to Realms of Magic as power sources but without tying any spell list to a particular realm, added to Spell Research, allowing my spell casters to easily learn and cast their commonly used spells (the ones within their spell lists), have a few special spells not in spell lists (the Researched ones) that were hard to learn but easy to cast, yet to be able to produce any magical effect they want any time through Spell Shaping, though it's an expensive and hard to cast way. Therefore, they have no limitation on what they can do, provided they have enough magical knowledge and power (not even realm limitation).
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"Arcane" is RM2-ese for "power creep".
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hahaha.. pretty much..yeah.
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The real problem with arcane magic in RM is that while more powerful that the realm spell list, there is no significant difference in them, or their use. So the fumble range is double, big deal.
Arcane magic is raw, primal and dangerous. Add some danger to your game tagging flaws to the use of arcane such as power burn (1 hit per pp/level of the arcane spell cast), slow recovery (pp used to cast arcane magic recover at number of ranks in pp dev per sleep cycle, or half the average of In, Em and Pr mods if you prefer), mystical attraction (every arcane spell cast has a 10% chance of being detected by a mystical creature, be it demon, ethereal plane denizen, local mages, etc), magic allergys (-15 to rr's from Ess, ment and Chan), etc, etc, etc.
Without such flaws, arcane magic is indeed nothing but fancy ubur magic.
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Otoh, with such flaws it should be more powerful imho.
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mystical attraction (every arcane spell cast has a 10% chance of being detected by a mystical creature, be it demon, ethereal plane denizen, etc)
I like to use this for any realm. 1%/lvl. After a few "random" encounters, the PC's stop throwing around high level spells unless they absolutely have to.