Topic: How do you manage undead "senses" ?

[Faustized]

Certainly from the biological point of view they do not have them, some undead are described  as a mass of rotting flesh, in other only the bones remain, but others again are described with glowing eyes.But how do they work?


From "Creatures & Monsters," under the heading "Becoming undead"

_"Most Undead can detect undead life forces and usually strive to eliminate them"

So at least they have this sense, but how muche is its range? How accurate?Does it work based on the level of the undead (ex.: 10ft/lvl), or is it standard for all ( ex: 1000ft )?

If we consider the undead having no sense except this, they will not be able to perceive anything outside of their range, but , inside,they will be able to fight without penalty opponents invisible because they gain full information having only that.

Or, have the undead maintained , as heritage of their former lives, a magical version of senses?So fighting an invisible opponent, considering the ability to perceive life, have only a fraction of the penalties (eg:  -50 instead of - 100)

And if so,did they develop them as when they were alive?

Tell me what do you think  : )

[kevinmccollum]

Personally, my undead have normal range on their senses, they just ignore normal invisibility.

[VladD]

Undead are my most favorite opponent, to be used against my players' characters.

They have learned that undead have several senses above normal.

Detect life: range 100'. It is some sort of connection to the shadow plane, where the living shine as bright lights (and elves shine so bright that some undead would avoid them). I don't like a long range here because I don't like zombies and skeletons to trigger on every passerby. Also it works much like spell in that it is blocked by 1 foot of stone, 3 foot of wood and 1" of metal.

Sight, hearing: range as race the undead originally was. It is like the way it was in life, except undead also have dark vision up to their former range and it is more likely that thieves and rogues have better developed senses, than others.

Taste, touch, smell, temperature sense, balance: For corporeal undead these senses exist and would be like their former living self's senses. Incorporeal undead just don't have them.

I would like to note that I like to spice up my games with such stuff as blind ghosts (just relying on the detect life ability) where they can't see, but have massively increased range for the detect life. Also I like the headless corpse (no sight, hearing, smell and taste) but increased other senses and the composite frankenstein, who has like elvish eyes, dog's nose, elephant's ears, etc.

On a side note: Demons in my game (to make them more terrifying) have "ultra vision" meaning they get all types of vision: Dark vision, Infra vision, Aura vision (this detects living and magical auras, taking care of those pesky invisible beings and illusions), up to 100' unless its a really powerful demon.

Shamble On!

[Marc R]

sometimes I do make the least undead a little weak in the perception department, especially the least versions of zombies and created undead.

But the smarter undead, especially the predatory ones like vampires will be hard to hide from.

[providence13]

I like the weaker senses for weaker undead. Stronger undead may have excellent hearing, sight or smell (Ghouls).

For the ability to sense life, I think the book does give us a range. IMHO, it's the range of Con drain for that undead. They are definitely going to notice if they suddenly absorb life essence.

For others it could be the range of their Fear ability (Dark Apparition 100ft.) Undead could sense the fear they generate in others.

If it's not given at all, 10'/lvl is good for me.
For those undead that have harmful effects over a 1-3 rnd period for example, maybe it's possible to sneak past them if you a quick (Minor Skeletons).

A spell that masks Presence could hide you for a while, at least.

[Nortti]

For me too the senses of lesser undead are limited. Undead spellcasters, vampires, werecreatures etc have acute senses (detect living, fear) and some might always know your direction no matter the distance. Or have such urge for the blood in your veins that they can hear its flow.

[RandalThor]

Does it work based on the level of the undead (ex.: 10ft/lvl), or is it standard for all ( ex: 1000ft )?

This, though not necessarily with a specific math ratio answer. It depends upon the type (lich or just high-level zombie/skeleton), etc...

If we consider the undead having no sense except this, they will not be able to perceive anything outside of their range, but , inside,they will be able to fight without penalty opponents invisible because they gain full information having only that.

Or, have the undead maintained , as heritage of their former lives, a magical version of senses?So fighting an invisible opponent, considering the ability to perceive life, have only a fraction of the penalties (eg:  -50 instead of - 100)

I roughly equate them to human senses, if they were human to begin with, or whatever were their main senses when alive. Like a human zombie can see that you are alive, and thusly tell the difference between you and the other zombies.

And if so,did they develop them as when they were alive?

No, for me, it is all about how powerful of an undead they are now. So, if a 50th level fighter gets raised as a regular zombie, then he/it is now just a regular zombie. If he was raised as a zombie lord, on the other hand...

So, the level/toughness, and type of undead make a difference here. This is in keeping with their tougher natures.

[Marc R]

A lot of this ties to intelligence too. . . like you throw a rock in the woods, far more likely to draw off zombies so you can sneak off, than on vampires. . .on the flip side, once they see you, the really stupid undead might be too stupid to fool. . . .like if you run into a room and hide, a vampire may run on searching for you elsewhere, while the zombies tear the place apart until they find you.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Like a human zombie can see that you are alive, and thusly tell the difference between you and the other zombies.

Depends. Everyone knows that, at least as far as Egyptian zombies are concerned, if you raise your arms and start jumping forward whilst chanting "Imhotep! Imhotep!", other zombies would take you for one of them!

[providence13]

Or Bubba Ho-tep, about an Egyptian King haunting a retirement home. The old mummy didn't count on Elvis faking his own death and JFK'S brain being transplanted in an aged body. The mummy never stood a chance.
Now that guy retains some of his senses..

[Cory Magel]

Interesting seeing the different ways people handle it.  I've never really thought about it a lot... but I guess my general theory is something like...

If they are unintelligent undead (skeletons or mummies for example) then they operate on something that would be best described as a short range "Detect Life" ability if left to their own resources.  I'd put it at no more than 100' but no less than 40'.  But generally they are being directed by an intelligent source that has some form of magical 'control' or 'communication' with them.  After all, in most cases skeletal undead have been created by someone.  This is one of those situations where the party should be doing their best to succeed in the "Cut the head off the snake and the body will die" tactic if the undead are zeroing in on them quickly and easily.  Typically I'd put a Lich or Evil Channeler (Evil Priest or full on Necromancer) in charge.  In my book it would be beneath a Vampire to stoop to using such primitive undead in most cases.

Zombies are slightly different.  They are basically a being that is decaying... intelligence and senses included. They are rarely controlled (mainly cause if you are going to create undead you're going to create something better) and are created by other Zombies from living beings, not dead ones.  Firstly they could have had their senses damaged somehow (eyes gouged out or ear drum smashed for example), but even so they are no longer very bright, so they operate more on a "Oh, I heard or saw SOMETHING in that direction, head that way!" (i.e. a well thrown rock could easily misdirect them if you are hiding and create a noticeable enough distraction).  I treat Zombies as more of a disease of some kind.

Ghosts are pretty much: Detect Life at any time and Sight and Hearing if they are corporeal at the time.  No sense of smell (although detect life makes that rather moot).  If their creation was 'spontaneous' then they are typically as intelligent as they were when they died (or whatever state of mind they were in when they died).  If a ghost has been 'brought back' somehow then it is pretty much the same person it was when it died, plus any experiences it may have experienced in the afterlife.

Beyond that there's really the higher end undead.  Vampires, Lich, etc.  Don't think it needs to be said they are probably going to have 'natural' or magical senses that are better than your typical humanoid.

[RandalThor]

Zombies are slightly different.  They are basically a being that is decaying... intelligence and senses included. They are rarely controlled (mainly cause if you are going to create undead you're going to create something better) and are created by other Zombies from living beings, not dead ones.  Firstly they could have had their senses damaged somehow (eyes gouged out or ear drum smashed for example), but even so they are no longer very bright, so they operate more on a "Oh, I heard or saw SOMETHING in that direction, head that way!" (i.e. a well thrown rock could easily misdirect them if you are hiding and create a noticeable enough distraction).  I treat Zombies as more of a disease of some kind.

This is definitely due to all the zombie movies these last couple of decades being science-fiction/horror movies/shows and not fantasy/horror. When you are talking about Rolemaster and a fantasy setting, zombies are like skeletons in that they are reanimated corpses serving some master. They do not transmit their condition from bite or scratch. Now, they can still be described as being very stupid (no argument here) and easily tricked, but they can just as easily be described as having supernatural senses, just like skeleton most obviously have to have. (I mean they got no flesh, no eyeballs! Of course, it is supernatural in some way.)

I do agree that the weaker undead have weaker senses, so less range and less "sensitivity" (read: lower bonuses). The senses get better, and more difficult to trick as the undead gets more powerful/higher-level. And that is not to say that they have to be anything more than magical emulations to a beings normal senses, like sight, hearing, smell, etc. So, instead of life sensing, they see, hear, and/or smell like they did in life, only less-so - if they are a weaker undead - or more-so if they are more powerful.

[Cory Magel]

I just think it's more interesting to change up how the various undead are created and/or operate.  I think it gives you more options to explain various plot hooks within a setting that way.

I make a distinction between an animated corpse and a Zombie.  An animated corpse is just that... a corpse that has been animated and is being controlled remotely or operated like a marionette doll by someone else.  Zombies are more like an infestation, no one is controlling them.

Skeletons and mummies are the result of some form of magic.  A skeleton is simply a creation akin to a gollum whereas a mummy might be more independent due to something like a failed attempt to become a Lich.

Ghosts are the result of someone who has been cursed somehow - either by their own actions or by someone else.  There's a reason they are trapped between worlds and once they have resolved it they are free to 'rest'.  Obviously it will vary from ghost to ghost.

Powerful undead like a Vampire or a Lich are more unique and tend to have their own individual back-story.  They have almost always made themselves what they are as a result of very intentional actions before death.

[Marc R]

A few of the other undead could fall into the "disease" category, like vampires also spread themselves via infection.

[Cory Magel]

A few of the other undead could fall into the "disease" category, like vampires also spread themselves via infection.

True, Vampires is will depend on your backstory for them.  In most cases the "first" vampire was cursed somehow, but typically as a result of his own, usually questionable, actions.  After that it's essentially a disease-like effect (although some welcome it).

[markc]

A few of the other undead could fall into the "disease" category, like vampires also spread themselves via infection.

True, Vampires is will depend on your backstory for them.  In most cases the "first" vampire was cursed somehow, but typically as a result of his own, usually questionable, actions.  After that it's essentially a disease-like effect (although some welcome it).

 Or you can throw that out and just begin with the disease idea. ie disease came first and the story changed over time to include some curse.
MDC

[RandalThor]

That disease doesn't have to be mundane, it could be a magical one.

[Marc R]

True, a transferable curse is not a disease, but operates like one.