Topic: Warrior Mage - Warriors Weapon

[Hubbaman]

Hello Again!
The spell Blade from the Warriors Weapon list will enchant a weapon to become your personal weapon and give it a bonus.
Are there any restrictions concerning what kind of weapon you can choose?
Can you cast this spell on a +20 magical weapon and get an additional bonus?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Personally, I would say no (note: unless a spell specifically stated otherwise, that is also the official ruling I would make, if asked to make one).

The intent of spells like that is usually to enchant a non-magical weapon, to give it a magical bonus.

Allowing it on a magical weapon could result in some extremely high bonuses, much higher than normal. Which, in turn, could unbalance the game.

[Hubbaman]

Makes sense, but would you allow it to be used on a weapon with a non magical bonus?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

IIRC, magical and non-magical bonuses do not stack - it is either one or the other, so if that is the case, then I would allow it

If the rules being used allowed them to stack, then I would say no

[providence13]

I guess it is assumed that this weapon is of pretty decent quality, if it is their favorite weapon;
but I wouldn't make that a requirement...
 
"This sword has been through it all! There are so many notches that ya' just about have to use it as a saw. The pommel slips and the leather grips never seem to hold. I attacked a Fire Elemental once and now it never holds an edge for long.
But my father gave me this when I was seven years old and his father before him. Back then, I wasn't even strong enough to lift it!
But I have trained with it every day since. He showed me ways to focus my will and make the sword an extension of myself. I do not kill with my sword. I kill with my heart. Now, when I need it to, it's sharp as a razor and bright as the sun."

[Marc R]

It does raise all sorts of problems, but I've never been happy with the idea that enchanting a crappy blade gave the same result as enchanting a masterwork. . . .I am fully aware of why you'd want to avoid a +20 magic / +20 quality = +40 blade, but I find it hard to swallow that a +20 magic / -10 quality, +20 magic / 0 quality and +20 magic / +10 quality blade all work out to effectively being a +20 magic sword.

I see both sides of it, but I just don't like the idea of Excalibur being a rusty, slightly bent bit of crap stuck into a stone in a churchyard.

[rdanhenry]

By the rules as written, you can't create a +20 magic/-10 quality weapon. You need a non-magical bonus no less than +5 below the magical enchantment you wish to create. This has its own issues. I think a lot of GMs house rule this area.

[providence13]

Guys, I could be way off the mark, but I think we are all talking about two different things.

I think that most people agree on having a quality item for  permanent magic enchantments to "stick". This is stated in AlcCo (iirc).

But this spell only makes the item enchanted "in a good way" for the caster. It is enchanted "in a bad way" for everyone else. It is only the caster that can benefit from the magic of the spells on the List.
The way I see it, if it doesn't belong to you, assume this sword is cursed (old AD&D cursed), or just a really crappy blade, because that is how it's going to work for everyone else.

If someone else picked up your weapon, -15 Blade III, they would tell right away how poorly balanced it was, how sweat wasn't absorbed and made the handle slick, it couldn't keep an edge, etc. But in your hands, it's a +15 Blade!! It is no longer fighting the user..

(You know, this List is very similar to the Magic Staff List... )

Just a thought.

[kevinmccollum]

I think that most people agree on having a quality item for  permanent magic enchantments to "stick". This is stated in AlcCo (iirc).

I don't agree with that. I know this is the RMSS thread but the original RM rules never did call for any quality or material bonus to enchant something, that was pulled directly from AD&D rules.

In fact, in RM2, you could enchant materials that had negative bonuses.

[Hubbaman]

I can see that point of not letting the bonuses stack. The problem with this for me is that we usually play campaigns where there are a lot of magical or high quality weapons. It is even a good chance to get +15 or +20 weapons from training packages.

I was hoping this spell would give me a better weapon, but it seems like my hopes where in vain.
But if I enchant a +20 quality blade with Blade II, what do I end up with?

[Fidoric]

You could keep the highest bonus only, considering that blade II is a relatively weak spell, able to hone a blade so it is more sharp, but your +20 quality blade is already sharp past that point so the spell doesn't work on it.

[Hubbaman]

You could keep the highest bonus only, considering that blade II is a relatively weak spell, able to hone a blade so it is more sharp, but your +20 quality blade is already sharp past that point so the spell doesn't work on it.

OK, the main reason for the spell is to make it your personal weapon, so I can live with a +20. Would you use it as +20 magical weapon? Concerning Undeads and other creatures that can only be hurt by magical weapons or would it only be +10 in those cases?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I would say it would be either a +20 non-magical weapon OR a +10 magical weapon, and that the wielder would get to choose which each time he used it.

This is helpful for those situations where you need a magical bonus to permanently damage something (such as with undead).

[Ecthelion]

Rasyr, that's also how we handled the spell in my group and it worked quite well.

[Fidoric]

I understand the logic behind that, but I have difficulties with variable bonuses. How do you choose which bonus you use, how do you switch from non-magical +20 to magical +10 and back ?
If you consider that a +20 non magical bonus includes balance, sharpness... how could a enchantment make the weapon less efficient ?

OK, the main reason for the spell is to make it your personal weapon, so I can live with a +20. Would you use it as +20 magical weapon? Concerning Undeads and other creatures that can only be hurt by magical weapons or would it only be +10 in those cases?

In that case, I would make it a +20 magical weapon.

[providence13]

I've accidentally cut myself while doing sugar work! That stuff is almost as sharp as glass. But it is even more brittle.

Most people are familiar with flint napping, again incredible sharp, but easily broken against steel armors.

Even copper, brass, bronze can hold an edge long enough to cut you.

IMO, all of these could be made enchanted weapons. Now, the breakage numbers would be incredible, you may just get one good roll of the dice on an attack.

I believe the AlcCo says that weapons have to be better than average, but I'll look it up. I had thought that's how it was normally played.. but it's great if I'm wrong.

My issue with having a requirement of quality before enchantment....
Icarus. I like to think that with an awesome roll, extreme knowledge in the subject matter and enough PP/spells, you could build wings out of feathers and wax.

As for variable bonuses, you could have a mighty fine quality weapon, but it doesn't hit "magic" creatures or crit on the magic weapon crit table unless you invoke it's name, or "By the power of Greyskull", or something. Then, the magic bonus would be used.. for that round, a few rounds, that combat.. whichever.
Just a suggestion on how to have variable bonuses.

[Marc R]

I would say it would be either a +20 non-magical weapon OR a +10 magical weapon, and that the wielder would get to choose which each time he used it.

This is helpful for those situations where you need a magical bonus to permanently damage something (such as with undead).

I get that logic, but as a general rule, it tends to break down.

the +20 quality, +10 magical weapon offers an obvious benefit in picking the lower bonus for things that need magic to hit, or where you want to use the "magic" vs "normal" columns on large/super large.

As long as the normal bonus exceeds the magic bonus, that works.

What if it's +20 magic, +10 quality, why bother ever using the non magic bonus?

What if you have Excalibur, the +20m/+10n and Rusty metal bar +20m/-20n. . .both +20 in all situations.

The "Just take the higher bonus" logic is happy-joy until someone whips out a +20 enchanted -100 material/quality paper origami battle-axe and starts cleaving people into gravy.

In context of this spell, it's like someone saying "What kind of bonus would you call this twig, as a club?" with an answer of "Like -50, why?" leading to "OK, I make this twig-club my special weapon, nobody ever respects it, until I slap them with it as a +10 magical club, but then it's too late. . ."

It seems to become illogic at that point.

[rdanhenry]

What if it's +20 magic, +10 quality, why bother ever using the non magic bonus?

What if you have Excalibur, the +20m/+10n and Rusty metal bar +20m/-20n. . .both +20 in all situations.

The "Just take the higher bonus" logic is happy-joy until someone whips out a +20 enchanted -100 material/quality paper origami battle-axe and starts cleaving people into gravy.

Which explains why the RAW require enchanted weapons to have a non-magical bonus no more than five less than the desired magical bonus. Blade I, however, does not create an enchanted weapon in the normal sense, although it does "grant the weapon a +5 magic bonus".

The Warrior's Weapon can be an exception because it is a personal weapon and the bonus represents a personal bond rather than improved weapon quality. I would go ahead and add the bonuses in this case, although only with a non-magical bonus. I'm not sure I'd even allow a magical weapon to become a Warrior's Weapon given the description, since you'd have two magical bonuses in that case.

[markc]

 I add the bonus but then I use smaller material bonuses in my game.

MDC

[kevinmccollum]

What if you have Excalibur, the +20m/+10n and Rusty metal bar +20m/-20n. . .both +20 in all situations

Which is why in RM2, the only time you added the material bonus was when it was a negative "bonus". In the above case, old Excalibur would be +20 but the rusty metal bar was +0 but still magical.