Topic: Illusion question for RM -- any version

[dutch206]

Say you are in the wintertime wilderness and your party illusionist creates the illusion of a campfire.  Light, sound, smell of burning wood, feeling of heat....the whole 9 yards.

The question is:  Does your party freeze to death?

[Nders]

Yes I should think so. Or rather it depends... The feel mirage to create the heat would probably create actual heat and thus might provide the warmth to avoid freezing. It all depends on whether you consider the sense to be real even if the object is not or you consider the illusionary sense to be a trick on the mind. As the core illusionist is a pure essence I think that I would consider the heat real. Even when that opens up an entire can of nasty possibilities or questions at least for illusions. Did that make sense?

[rdanhenry]

Rolemaster illusions are explicitly not "trick on the mind" stuff, but real sense stimuli. Which means a feeling of warmth comes from radiated heat. You could not actually set something on fire without it using up a "feel", though, since that would be an attack. You'd have to stay within the limits of the illusion and it would only work for the duration of the illusion.

It would also be no better than a normal fire and if you were still exposed to a cold wind, you might freeze anyway. An elemental fire might have the power to keep you from freezing even without shelter. Cold protection magic can explicitly do so. I don't think allowing this would make the Illusionist too powerful, which would be the only reason I could see to want to disallow it.

[munchy]

Cool idea for use of a spell.

[markc]

 I see the essence illusionist more as a creationist, in that they actually create the effects out of the surroundings. So in my game if I allow the profession I say in most cases you have to create the whole illusion for the effect to be real, unless a spell spells out another minor effect.
 So for the fire IMO to provide heat then all elements would have to be there; wood, fire, heat and the smoke and motion IMO would be minor effects. Otherwise it would not provide the right amount of heat to the party.


BTW; you could probably tell that I have had problems in my game with illusion type spells as it tended to end up in arguments with the player as they thought the effects would be different then I did. IMO Illusions can be very very powerful and a good player can take that a long way. But as long as the GM and player can be on the same page as to illusions power level they can be very effective in a setting.
MDC  

Edit:
 IMO the heat portion would be the damage portion of the spell and the environment would reduce the damage to nothing besides life sustaining warmth.
 Another application would be to create a wall that could block out the wind as that is almost more important to me than a fire.

 Another question; will the wind blow out the illusionary fire? Or will the illusionary fire consume the illusionary wood? And if the fire does not consume the wood does is go out?
MDC

[Marc R]

Illusions in RM are as real as holodeck elements. . .just fragile, so attacks break them.


If you were capable of adding a feel element to the fire, it would be hot, but not hot enough to cause burns. . . . . .How about an illusion of a big tent that uses feel elements to block the wind and rain. . .a storm would qualify as attacks and negate the feel effects, but a merely cold night shouldn't. . . .and a perfectly draft tight tent should stay fairly warm from just human body heat radiation.

[markc]

 Another thought in the RMC Spell Law IIRC they did a lot with defining illusions and what they can and cannot do. So that might be a good place to check for more info if you have the book.
MDC

[dutch206]

  Another question; will the wind blow out the illusionary fire? Or will the illusionary fire consume the illusionary wood? And if the fire does not consume the wood does is go out?
MDC

I think we are moving into "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin" territory.  However, now that you've asked the questions, I am dying to know the answers.   

[Marc R]

I'd say wind strong enough to count as a blow would count as an attack and knock out 1 feel, otherwise no.

The wood will be consumed, if the illusionist chooses.

If the illusionist wants the fire to run out of wood and go out, then yes. (Like you could set an illusion of a log burning up and away and then gone.)

[pastaav]

Essence illusions really create something of substance so you can not disbelieve it to make it disappear. On the other hand there is IMHO little support for the illusion being a replacement of the real thing.

For instance consider there is a separate list called Light Moldling to make light sources even though you could use Illusion Mastery spell list to make a static illusion or phantasm of any object. This tells to us that a standard illusion does not shine enough to light the environment. How could we possibly say the illusionary fire heat the environment if it does not light the environment?

If we are looking at the physical explanation I would say that the illusion itself sends out photons enough for the illusion to look real, but that illusion does not generate energy and can thus not sustain actually sending enough energy to light or heat the environment. Checking the wordings of the feel spells I find no support at all for them being able to create heat, all the rules for breaking feels always talk strictly about physcial touch and nothing else.

My opinion is that you can make a illusionary fire that looks like fire, that smells like a fire, that taste like a fire (aka smoke), that sounds like a fire, that contain logs that feels real if you touch them....but there is no Illusionist spell that supports the idea that you can make the illusionary fire project real heat so if you put your hand forward to lift one of the logs then you will realize that the fire is illusionary since it is room tempered.

About the issue of illusionary tent with feels I do agree that such could be used for weather projection but that any rough winds would risk burning the feels.

[mocking bird]

As written I would say no.  Mainly because illusionary attacks do only MA strike damage so illusionary fire bolts do not cause heat damage.

This remind me of an old thread where the question as posed could an illusionary torch be used to see by.  You could argue that if an illusionary fire did not give off light then how could you see it in the first place if it were created in complete darkenss?  Or would it require additional light control spells?

[Marc R]

IMO the illusion doesn't send out photons at all, it reflects like any solid object, but isn't a light source. . .illusions are solids, just really fragile.

Hence my suggestion you'd be better off creating an illusion of a tent or shack to shelter in, which would work to keep you warm as long as it wasn't struck with anything the GM would consider an attack to negate it.

[kevinmccollum]

Yes, your party would freeze to death.

1) illusions are non-mobile. to actually have "flames" you would require a phantasm.
2) heat is radiant energy. it is not something you could create with a "feel" mirage. You could make an phantasmal flame which could give off light (light mirage).

As LM suggested, some form of shelter is the best thing you could do with a static illusion. If you made the shelter with a phantasm, you could add a door that could open and close.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Yes, your party would freeze to death.

I have to agree.

2) heat is radiant energy. it is not something you could create with a "feel" mirage. You could make an phantasmal flame which could give off light (light mirage).

A higher level Phantasm could add a feel component to the spell, but  that would only make the fire feel warm or hot if you touched it, it would not radiate heat in any manner.

[rdanhenry]

The illusion would be of warmth to the edge of the illusion. I agree it would not radiate warmth in the physical manner, but within the radius of the illusion would be warm air (seemingly warmed by the 'fire', but instead warmed by the illusion). Those inside the radius are touching the air (which the illusion makes warm to the touch), they do not need to touch the flames. The component of the illusion are real and temperature is a component of the sense of touch. Take one step outside the effect of the illusion and you would be freezing cold with no benefits, I agree.

If I wanted to make things difficult for the Illusionist, I would allow it, but require a Spell Mastery roll.

[kevinmccollum]

How do you touch heat? I know you "feel warm" but feel senses are something you can touch. The texture of wood, the hard surface of metal. But warmth? that isn't something that should be able to be replicated by a feel mirage.

But if you think an illusion can generate heat in your game, go for it.

[Marc R]

To a degree, it should work, but only in the sense that a phantasm of a person shouldn't feel like a room temperature corpse to the touch, but in terms of fire scale heat, that could burn, I don't see it. . . .then again, you could make a phantasm of a warm tub full of water by that logic. . . .it's a very fuzzy area that's not actually addressed. . .

The spells are intended to make things so convincing they could fool you, so shouldn't necessarily be able to detect illusions/phantasms because they are always room temperature, so as GM you could say that "Feel" elements include appropriate temperature elements. . . .but the spells also specifically inflict martial arts damage regardless of what they look like when used to attack, so they cannot be burning hot or freezing cold, at best, if the GM decides it works that way, merely warm or cool to the touch as is appropriate to make the illusion/phantasm seem real.

It does seem that creative use of an illusion or phantasm could help with being out in the freezing cold, be it by making a tent (or perhaps a bath full of warm water), but the OP question of a bonfire doesn't seem to work. . .at best the bonfire would be body temperature warm, if the GM decided to be nice, it wouldn't throw off radiant heat as a fire would. . . .

[Fornitus]

 O.K. 
 So if camping in the cold, a Phantasm fire wont radiate heat but has some heat in the illusion.
 
So why not just set everyone on fire with the illusion? kind like Immolate?
The "fire" would work like a coat or something wouldnt it? (yes. now you are the biggest target in the woods , but the area of effect could cover a few people.) And gentle movement wont break the Feel portion. Right?

 While the tent idea is pretty cool, it makes me think of something else....

 If a Feel Mirage will take a blow to be dispelled (taken or given), then could you use it to create a barrier around your King or whomever to protect against assassins? At least the first arrow or two?

 

[Marc R]

I suspect that covering each person would make for 1 feel effect, while covering everyone in 1 tent would be 1 feel. . .and moving around too much, or making sharp movements, would pop one feel. . . The static tent is an illusion, you'd need to cover each party member in a mobile phantasm.

Same with the king, slapping his hand down on the table for emphasis would "pop" a feel. As would any other hard contact.

It comes back to using the same amount of care you'd use crossing the illusion of a bridge. It's real, but slide your feet and try not to think about how far you're gonna fall if a bird crashes into the side of it.

[Fornitus]

 To protect a King the Phantasm would be of a wall around him not on him.
 cast after he is sitting and before the pettioners are alowed in.