Topic: Any alternative to Everyman and Occupational?

[thass]

In my opinion, the rules about occupational and everyman can be abused easily, especially for combat related skills. A level 4 fighter with an occupational broadsword could have a better bonus than a level 12 fighter!
I like the idea of having a special benefit to some skills, due to race, talents or profession. But I’m looking for an alternative method different from getting free ranks.

Any idea? 

Thanks in advance

[Nejira]

Not sure I understand your question completely. The lvl 4 fighter with Occupational broadsword have the same max ranks as the lvl12 fighter (24 ranks). But then that´s what Occupational and Everyman does; increase the number of ranks acquired.

As I see it, all Everyman and Occupational does are to increase how fast you max out in a particular area. Yes you still have continue buying ranks, but after 20 its not much of a gain and beyond 30 ranks its pointless IMO.

To me the biggest flaw in Everyman and Occupational are that not all professions/cultures/races get the same amount. EG: What did ranger do to receive none??

But alternative methods....give a bonus instead? But thats more or less the same as free ranks. Though slightly better as it increases your max bonus and not just how fast you reach your maximum potential.

I tried to come up with alternatives myself but have failed. At first I wanted to drop them completely but decided against that in the end (for the children´s sake..aka my players). So I keep them, but I did give ranger Everyman in all within the Outdoor Environmental category, and Occupational in Tracking and Reading Tracks.

[pastaav]

My suggestion would be to make a list of skills/categories that can be made everyman and make sure to not include broadsword in that list. Weapon skills is a prime example of skills that IMO should not be made everyman while there is little harm if a crafts skill is made occupational or everyman.

Basically the current rules notice that there is balance problem if characters can front load skills like Broadsword and proceed to make all kind of patches to avoid the worst abuse (training packages only raise skills up to ten ranks, talents that give more ranks to weapon skills cost more than those that affect regular skills, etc). The more simple solution is of course to add a rule that some skills can not get the problematic benefits and thus completely avoid the borderline cases of abuse.

[Arioch]

Not sure I understand your question completely. The lvl 4 fighter with Occupational broadsword have the same max ranks as the lvl12 fighter (24 ranks). But then that´s what Occupational and Everyman does; increase the number of ranks acquired.

As I see it, all Everyman and Occupational does are to increase how fast you max out in a particular area. Yes you still have continue buying ranks, but after 20 its not much of a gain and beyond 30 ranks its pointless IMO.

To me the biggest flaw in Everyman and Occupational are that not all professions/cultures/races get the same amount.

I agree.
The issue here imho isn't everyman/ocupational skills, is that not every character get the same amount of them.

[Ecthelion]

Over a long range of ranks developed, the advantage of an Everyman skill is similar as having a +20 bonus on the skill, and the advantage of an Occupational skills is similar like having a +30 bonus. So instead of using the free ranks method, you could hand out a flat bonus. Of course you are free to use other bonuses than the ones I listed above, e.g. +10 for Ev and +15 for Oc, if you would like to reduce the effect of these skills classifications.

[markc]

 One thing Rasyr proposed a while ago was to adjust the skill cost by the modifier. So if it has a skill mod of x2 then divide the cost by 2.

MDC

[pastaav]

One thing Rasyr proposed a while ago was to adjust the skill cost by the modifier. So if it has a skill mod of x2 then divide the cost by 2.

That was actually the written rule in the first printing of RMSS...in later printings they changed it to the multiple ranks gained for each rank purchased.

[markc]

pastaav;
 I did not know that. Well if it works for you use it.
MDC

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I've always found the everyman/occupational skills as presented rather clumsy and unbalanced (for reasons stated above...not everybody get them).

However, I disagree that the mechanic need to be altered.. simply better managed and apportioned across the professions/races. And made easier to apply accross the system.

I don't buy into the reasoning as to why they are overpowered... true a character can achieve a higher bonus faster, but once achieved just hits the law of diminshing returns just that much sooner.

My personal thoughts are that they are just a form of specialization/or talent and should apply from the very first rank recieved from whatever source, whether it be adolescent or purchased training packages or just purchased with DP. No exceptions.

If a race gives additional ranks at adolescent, in a skill which is classified E or O then THEY should be clearly presented in a fashion that reflects the races ranks before the application of the E/O modifier.

So, a method of fairly assessing the value of the Everyman/Occupational skills awarded to each profession needs to be made IF we are trying to create a Balanced system (IMHO The races not balanced in Rolemaster and rightly so). Personally I find this in itself problematic as some of the everyman skills are not overpowered (or all that useful).

Me? I'd say abandon ALL those E/O awarded for free by Professions and simply make them talents that can be purchased. Give ALL professions an amount of Talent points to spend to compensate.  


 

[rdanhenry]

Like any aspect of the game, it should be adjusted for your current campaign/setting. If you don't want starting characters to be highly skilled combatants, don't allow any but the most minor of OB boosting Talents/Background Options and change any Everyman/Occupational weapon skill classifications. If you think changing the classification of a skill makes a Profession or Race/Culture better fit your world, then make the change.

If we're planning a long campaign, I'll take a fixed bonus over an Everyman/Occupational classification almost every time, because of the diminishing returns.

As far as balance goes, that's also campaign specific. The combat monster is going to end up underpowered in a court intrigue/romantic melodrama campaign, while the Mystic with Influence skill boosting Talents will be amazing. O/E/R classifications is one of the many tools RMSS/FRP provides to adjust balance to the needs of your game. If you don't like them or get confused by them, then don't use them. There are other tools available, like the mentioned fixed bonuses. They don't work in exactly the same way, but some people prefer a more limited toolkit.

[pastaav]

Just for information the worst mistake I ever did in one of my campaign was to allow everyman classification for adrenal defense. The other arms users also had everyman for skills of their choosing, but that did little or nothing to restore balance.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Exactly. There is a world of difference between allowing a everyman skill classification for Adrenal Defense and an Occupational skill in Region Lore for instance. That is why there should be a weighting system.

Personally, I don't feel the need for balance, as rdahenry said, there are some situations where a tanked character  isn't going to fare well. It is the GM who can ALWAYS dictate what is right for thier game.

[David Johansen]

Sadly, too many of the skill costs end in odd numbers to make the dividing by two method work.  You have no idea how much easier it would be to streamline RMSS if the combined progression skills just had even costs.

Anyhow, here's a nice simple solution:

Occupational Skills: 2 free ranks per level
Everyman Skills: 1 free rank per level
Restricted Skills: may only buy a rank every other level.

Since the goal here is restricting special skills I'd probably go the extra distance and rule that these free ranks prevent the purchase of additional ranks beyond the normal limit per level.  So, if you had an everyman skill with a 1/5 cost you could buy a second rank for one point but you couldn't buy the third rank.

[markc]

 I am not a fan of free ranks per level as it seems too much like a level bonus, a-la RM2. But it is a method others might like to use.

MDC

[providence13]

Level bonuses aren't my thing either. I do what I can to avoid 'em.
I do like the alternative of a flat bonus though...

[DavidKlecker]

When it comes to Adrenal Defense I have made a house rule which states you cannot have more ranks in Adrenal Defense than your level. This has worked out great, given I like to take the Martial Arts Training Talent whenever I play a Martial Artist and the everyman in Adrenal Defense can make the character TOO powerful. I also force AD to be at least 20%. Therefore AD Greater is 20%, AD Lesser is 30% and AD normal is 40%. I also don't allow AD AND Adrenal Evasion to be used in the same round even though the rules make this more than possible to achieve.

As for Everyman and Occ. I do NOT allow them to use on ANYTHING that is an attack skill. This includes Ambush, Subdual, Mounted Combat, Weapon Styles, Racial Attacks, Brawling, Weapons, etc. They are meant for non-attack skills only. Also I don't allow A restricted skill to automatically be made everyman and it's impossible to make a Restricted skill Occupational. Restricted skills are either made Normal or Everyman. This has worked out well for our group.

[RandalThor]

I think that giving a flat bonus is the way to go.

[mocking bird]

Actually the flat bonus is more overbalanced than the E/O method since all the latter does, as mentioned, is max the character sooner.  The former increases the cap and equates essentially to more ranks, i.e. a +30 to a skill can equate to 30 ranks if the player develops 20 which can easily be reached by 7th or 8th level with TP's and racial skills.  As such you end up with higher OB's with the flat bonus.

The only advantage I see is that it makes the disarm skill fractionally more useful, but still fairly pointless as it is still a higher cost special attack, with the flat bonus since that is the only time iirc weapon ranks is used in any manner.

Regarding the 'halving DP cost' mentioned above, iirc early versions of the RMSS book have that but it was changed in an erratta published in a later suppliment but I don't know if it ever was in the actuall book.

Regarding adrenal defense as E/O I think a better option would be to put some form of limitation on its use like, , actually using exhaustion or something like HARP where you have to roll each round for it with an icremental penalty for extended usage.

[Dark Schneider]

I see 2 problems:

1) Flat bonus: added to profession, race, talents, items and maybe others you have too high fixed bonus at level 1.
2) Divide cost like in RMSS: the problem is for cost 1, you take no advantage, sure this is the reason for change in RMFRP.

I have no clear solution but one could be as mentioned use a limit, maybe levelx3 like in HARP, I see it good. But this limit, IMO, should be used only for purchased ranks, and race, adolescence, TPs (as summary, all not affected by everyman/occupational) should not be used to compute rank limit. If not, some TPs like weapon master could become useless.

[RandalThor]

I like the PCs to have higher bonuses, but that is me. For those of you who don't, try this flat bonus method:

(Weapon) Master - The character is particularly adept at using a particular weapon (i.e., broadsword, battle-axe, spear, etc). At first level they get +10, and a +5 at every five levels thereafter, maximum bonus through this talent cannot exceed +30. (They don't get the full +30 until they reach 20th level. I surely do not think it is overpowering then...)

You could assign the Talent Point cost of your choice.