Topic: When does "stun" take effect?

[arnecooper]

I'm a little fuzzy on the phases of combat. If a combatant that has the initiative inflicts a critical which states that his opponent is stunned, do the effects of "stun" take place immediately or during the upkeep phase of the next round? Does his opponent still get his attack during the initial round or does he lose it?

Also a question concerning the combat companion about multiple attacks per round. If one fighter has 3 attacks per round and the other fighter only has 2 attacks per round, how does it affect parrying? Can the second fighter use part of his OB to parry all 3 attacks or only 2?

[RandalThor]

Immediately, I believe. The hits and all other effects are applied immediately upon receiving them. That is how we always played it.

[bottg]

we houseruled it to say that if you beat your opponent by a certain amount and inflict a stun, it takes effect immediately.  That way, if you are a few initiative points behind and get stunned, you can still hit that round.

[Arioch]

- Stun: (I'll assume you're talking about RMC) they are applied immediatly and are removed during the upkeep phase, at the rate of 1 for each upkeep phase.

- Parry: A parry is declared against a specific opponent, no matter how many attacks he uses against you, if you declare a parry against a specific opponent, then your DB will benefit from the amount parried against all his attacks.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Stun -- RMC Arms Law (will presume you are discussing this, since you mention Upkeep), on page 29, first column, under the heading Critical Damage Resolution explains that if the character receives the stun before 50% of his activity for the round has been expended, then the stun applies immediately, he loses his current action and it counts against the total (i.e. it is reduced by 1 come the upkeep phase).

If the character receiving the stun has expended more than 50% of his activity, then he does does not lose his current action, but only has a -25 apply to it (and it does not count as a round of stun).

Parry -- As Arioch said

- Parry: A parry is declared against a specific opponent, no matter how many attacks he uses against you, if you declare a parry against a specific opponent, then your DB will benefit from the amount parried against all his attacks.

However, also do not forget that the amount shifted to DB from Parrying comes from the base OB, which means all attacks for the round are reduced by that amount (i.e. if character has an OB of 150, and can do multiple attacks, and he wants to parry using 50 of OB, then his effective OB is 100 (and he gets +50 to DB) before the modifiers for multiple attacks are applied).

[arnecooper]

Thanks for the input, guys. I have the Arms Law & Claw Law fourth edition book from 1984. It has the cover with the three guys fighting a griffon. After posting my question (of course), I did find clarification on page 71. I also am trying out the Combat Companion, which seems to speed up combat a little, but is sometimes confusing. It seems to lack certain types of critical resolutions.

[kevinmccollum]

- Parry: A parry is declared against a specific opponent, no matter how many attacks he uses against you, if you declare a parry against a specific opponent, then your DB will benefit from the amount parried against all his attacks.

So, a parry for x amount still counts against a hasted foe? A 200% attack still gets the full parry amount applied to it?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

- Parry: A parry is declared against a specific opponent, no matter how many attacks he uses against you, if you declare a parry against a specific opponent, then your DB will benefit from the amount parried against all his attacks.

So, a parry for x amount still counts against a hasted foe? A 200% attack still gets the full parry amount applied to it?

If I am understanding your question correctly, the answer is yes.

It does not matter how many attacks your foe makes, if you are parrying that foe, then your DB is against ALL of the foe's attacks (note: This applies to monsters with multiple attacks per round as well).

[Nders]

Hmm many of these answers and questions have wordings that indicate that you can parry more than one foe... Is it not correctly understood that you can parry only the attacks of the one you attack your self?
And now that I am at it: can I parry all the foes I attack if using CC? That would make the element additional foe somewhat more powerful than I thought.

BTW I allow combatants to parry any attacker that does not receive a positional modifier. I do not however let parries against a foe count against all attacks from this foe.

[Witchking20k]

wow.  as a gm I have killed a ridiculous amount of PCs wit that parry thing.....I only ever allowed the parry to count vs 1 attack....hmmmm....I wonder if I can sneak this into the next session and make it seem like its not my fault....widh me luck

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Hmm many of these answers and questions have wordings that indicate that you can parry more than one foe... Is it not correctly understood that you can parry only the attacks of the one you attack your self?

And now that I am at it: can I parry all the foes I attack if using CC? That would make the element additional foe somewhat more powerful than I thought.

Under the core rules, you can only parry the foe that you attacked. RMC Arms Law, page 15). It also says on that page that a character may devote part of OB to Missile Parry, part to Melee Parry, and part to making an attack.

However, on page 31 of RMC Arms Law, there is an option for allowing parrying against multiple foes.


Now, personally, I see parrying as "fighting more defensively overall", and thus when GMing, I allow the amount used in Parrying to apply against all attacks from all foes (that character is aware of). And it has never caused a problem that I saw.

[kevinmccollum]

- Parry: A parry is declared against a specific opponent, no matter how many attacks he uses against you, if you declare a parry against a specific opponent, then your DB will benefit from the amount parried against all his attacks.


So, a parry for x amount still counts against a hasted foe? A 200% attack still gets the full parry amount applied to it?


If I am understanding your question correctly, the answer is yes.

No offense intended but if some GM told me that, I would say "Ok, then I want one attack roll at 200% of my OB as my 200% action."

Reasoning: The tactical combat sequence indicates that even though a combatant will swing his/her weapon several times in a ten second round, only one effective attack is made that round. the other swings/shots are assumed to be nullified by a shield, movement, a weapon, etc.  

Following that, a 200% action SHOULD result in a single roll at 200%. Normally, I would say the hasted/speeded character gets two half rounds of 100% action but my rulings are that a parry is a discrete entity. if something has two attacks, you need to split your parry against those two attacks. Just my opinion (I don't see how a normally speed character can even HOPE to stop blows that are coming twice as fast)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Note that I did use a qualifier, as I was not exactly sure what you meant by "200% attack".

Officially -- a melee attack takes from 50% to 100% activity in a round. If a character has enough activity, he may perform multiple attacks against a foe. With each attack taking 50% to 100% activity. And yes, that means that a character with 200% activity could make 3 attacks at 60% activity each (and still have 20% activity left over.

As for the rules regarding parrying -- they are explicit in stating that parry is against the foe, not against a foe's individual attacks. Parrying represents fighting more defensively overall.

Now, folks can house rule this all they want (I know that I do ), but when asked, I try to give the official answers as often as possible and try to denote what my personal views are when they differ from the official.

[kevinmccollum]

I was not exactly sure what you meant by "200% attack".

Example: my character has a 110 OB, I would ask for a single attack at 220 ob.

[Marc R]

I guess perhaps, against a super hard to hit foe that might be something you'd want, but two attacks at 100%. . .two +110 attacks, would almost always be better. . .two chances at the crit table. . .the rules just don't work that way though. . .if you spend 200% activity you get two 100% attacks, or three that add up to 200%, min 60.

If it worked that way, you could do something like say. . . .I don't attack for this round, then next round, I attack at 220 OB. (This would make missile attacks from ambush especially heinous, I aim for 9 rounds, then attack at 1100 OB.)

[arnecooper]

Okay, another question. Does a successful "stunned maneuver" roll allow an otherwise stunned combatant to make an attack?

[Nders]

yes it does but you should note that in RMC the stunned maneuver skill has been removed.

[kevinmccollum]

I guess perhaps, against a super hard to hit foe that might be something you'd want, but two attacks at 100%. . .two +110 attacks, would almost always be better. . .two chances at the crit table. . .the rules just don't work that way though. . .if you spend 200% activity you get two 100% attacks, or three that add up to 200%, min 60.

If it worked that way, you could do something like say. . . .I don't attack for this round, then next round, I attack at 220 OB. (This would make missile attacks from ambush especially heinous, I aim for 9 rounds, then attack at 1100 OB.)

You aren't seriously suggesting that I think that is a possibility. I'm saying that if I have 200% action in a single round, why not allow a 200% attack roll. single roll. twice my normal ob because two 100% attacks against a foe that is full parrying is NOT better than a single attack.

At any rate, it doesn't matter unless I am playing with some rules lawyer that claims I'm "doing it wrong" when I tell a player that their parry must be broken up between attacks. My game is going to be different. as every game is different.

[Marc R]

I dunno, if you can make a 200% attack in one round on haste, why not a 200% attack in two rounds when not? It's still "I take double normal effort to super set up an attack that results in a single deadly shot"?

Shrug. . .it's one of many examples of attempting to apply "common sense" to magic. . .

Like, speed and haste don't offer the capability to +50% or double your OB to a single attack. . .but shouldn't faster allow for a better attack?

Wait a sec, what about faster? In the base rules Haste lets you act another 100% after everyone goes 100%. . .you act longer than everyone else, not faster. (The "actions take 1/2 activity", rather than you get 200% activity rule idea is the way around that)

This falls into the logic of the spell logic. . .since as you said "How could someone at normal speed even HOPE to block attacks that are coming in twice as fast?"

Well, because this isn't a 100th level spell here, so it's effects are limited. . . .if you rationally and logically worked out the results of moving twice as fast allowing super attacks at super speed. (How about casually walking through a crowd of people moving at relative half speed, stabbing each in the neck with a dagger as you slip between their weapons in what from the outside looks like a matrix like hyper-dance of death?)

The margins on victory and a dirt nap in fencing are measured in tenths, hundreths and thousanths of seconds. . .double speed if you wanted to be rationally rational about it, would mean you could just stop rolling and everyone within reach takes an E crit to the neck. (I guess you could roll to check for a fumble to see if you bannana peel on the attempt).

Shrug, I find that normal fights rarely come down to people full attacking and full parrying as long as OB/DB splits are declared before initiative is resolved. . .and in the more common OB/DB splits two attacks are actually better, since two trips to the crit table double the chances of killing the target. . .roll that 220 OB attack, roll a 04 on the E crit, and it's a waste. . .heck, if you wanted to be super safe and dangerous. . . Hasted people can get nasty and 100% parry for 100% action, then 100% attack for 100% action, making it rather hard to get a poke back on them while they whale on you.

Regardless, you'd need to start worrying about someone coming back at you with that too. . .if that was the house rule, you'd find yourself in trouble facing it too.

There are likely 1,000 threads on this board that eventually have "Common sense would say that spell X would do Y. . .". . .which makes spell X far higher than Z level in potency. . .if you house rule it to do more, then it should be higher level than Z. . . . .

It's not like Haste isn't quite possibly the #1 or #2 errata source in all of Rolemaster, implying the scale of problems the spell has created, the amount of times it's been addressed, revised, officially ruled upon, tweaked, modified with a word or phrase added here or removed there. . . .

[Witchking20k]

I've always just ruled that 200% activity is the activity of 2 full rounds in one.  So, you can make 2 melee attacks @ 60% each, and have 40% twice for movement etc., or whatever the breakdown might be.

The real trick is that the player should, IMO, should declare only declare 1 round of action at 100%, then after all actions have taken place, declare a second round.  No mixed intiative, becasue the player gets an Orientation Roll at the end of a round (based on core RM rules).  So, the if they were to declare 2 rounds right away, then they might suffer penalties for aborting action etc. that doesn't seem fair.

The real advantage of a second round is being able to capitalize on the first round IMO, so I've always handled it as such.  Consequently, Demons etc. with 2 attacks, do not get this particular advantage as they are beings with a second attack in a round, not a a second round.