Topic: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

You're all just abounding in what I've been saying: that the mere existence of Death's Tale doesn't make the resolution of a murder a sure thing, and that one should still make plans to back up anything one of its users may tell with other ways. In other ways, when it gives another way to find what have happened, it's not the all-powerful, infallible tool others made it to be and even its truth value depends on the level of trust one can have on its users (who then would be similar to witnesses of some kind, who have sworn they tell the truth --and not some kind of absolute truth).

My point wasn't that it shouldn't be used (like what RandalThor suggested it was) but that it wasn't infallible so you'd still need to check and counter-check what the spellcaster using it says, in addition to checking and double-checking the background and agenda of the spellcaster himself. As such, while it gives PCs an additional insight on what may have happened, it also gives them additional tasks (checking and double-checking the background and agenda of the spellcaster), therefore not such a "problem" (of PCs solving all crime mysteries without any effort) in itself. Even in the case where the spellcaster is a PC (thus is trustful... to the other PCs), it doesn't mean he shall be trusted by the authorities that in place, so still will have to find proofs to backup his sayings.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

/Nerd mode on:

To tell the truth cohort astrologers etc, were actually able to predict disasters (in the original sense of the word: "evil star" or "astronomical aberrance", from  "dis-" = ill favoured + "astrum"= star). They weren't infallible, but those failing to predict such phenomenons too much usually lost the court's favour quite quickly...

/Nerd mode off.

Your point being? That such people did exist, and were able to somehow to forecast matters and be influential even in a world where magic does not exist (i.e. ours), which is exactly what I wrote? That's the point, after all. Such people existed, and were able to somehow to forecast matters and be influential even in a world where magic does not exist. As such, I fail to see how the existence of magic and spells allowing people to do the same would grant them some kind of dramatic "unfair advantages".

I mean:
Mage A: "Heh, I'm able to use magic in my world where magic actually exists (RPG world), and cast spell that allow me to predict the future, so that allows me to have an important place in the royal court!"
Mage B: "Well, I'm using ways that I call "magic" and that people around me believe are "magic" in a world where magic does not actually exist (ours, RL world), and I'm able to somehow predict the future, and that allows me to have an important place in the royal court as well. OK, so, now tell me how you're dramatically advantaged over me, dear Mage A, because I see us as being the same..."

[Arioch]

Even in the case where the spellcaster is a PC (thus is trustful... to the other PCs), it doesn't mean he shall be trusted by the authorities that in place, so still will have to find proofs to backup his sayings.

What I meant is that, as you wrote, seers etc were very influential even in our world, were magic (as intended in a standard fantasy rpg) does not exist. And this means that, in a world were magic is common, a PC able to cast Death's Tale True will very probably be trusted by local authorities (he is a high level cleric, he should be quite influential...).

But the real problem is that the players know that the spell tells the truth (we're talking about a game so we shouldn't forget about the people around the table!) and, unless you reword it, explaining clearely what it can and cannot show, as Rasyr did, they'll know what the solution to the mystery is.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

What I meant is that, as you wrote, seers etc were very influential even in our world, were magic (as intended in a standard fantasy rpg) does not exist. And this means that, in a world were magic is common, a PC able to cast Death's Tale True will very probably be trusted by local authorities (he is a high level cleric, he should be quite influential...).

But no more than he'd be in our real world, where magic doesn't exist and where, back at such times, people did believe it existed and was "common" (may it be miracles, or witchcraft). So, once again, I don't see how the existence of such magic would drastically change anything from playing a game set in our RL medieval time.
Also, being influential is a relative thing. Of course, if as a 19th level Cleric (Death's Tale True), he's being investigating the murder of a local farmer, I'd expect the other peasants and the local authorities to believe him, but I'd generally expect his opponents to be about the same political level than him, meaning just as influential, so it'd still be his word against the other person's word --therefore still posing the problem of finding more "concrete" proofs.

But the real problem is that the players know that the spell tells the truth (we're talking about a game so we shouldn't forget about the people around the table!) and, unless you reword it, explaining clearely what it can and cannot show, as Rasyr did, they'll know what the solution to the mystery is.

Well, I'd believe that, back in the dark ages in our RL world, most of the wizards, seers, astrologers, witches and the rest did believe whatever means they used to see things told them the truth as well...
Frankly, I think the best way to deal with such spells is to give the other side access to equal means, meaning spells to misdirect the scrying. Not always, just sometimes, in a calculated manner, so that whenever a character uses such a spell, the player would still wonder whether he wasn't misdirected this time... It's the way I manage it with one of my PCs, who is a Sleuth (RoCoIII).

Another may be to manage it a bit like Teleportation, with time since death being the deciding factor about how accurate the vision is.

[RandalThor]

My point wasn't that it shouldn't be used (like what RandalThor suggested it was) but that it wasn't infallible

First of all, I never said it was infallible or that it would be completely and absolutely believed by the powers that be. I just said that, just like our crime scene units and intelligence services, they would be used by the powers that be. Hell, I agree that even the player's shouldn't be absolutely sure that what they "see" with the spell is correct. Usually, I prefer the information gathering spells to be more abstract, with weird imagery as the spell caster's own mind tries to interpret the information.

The use of misdirection magics is a great way to make sure that the players aren't entirely comfortable with the results. but physical evidence can be faked as well, so it isn't perfect and can lead them astray. In fact, due to the generally fewer individuals who can use magic to misdirect, it is more likely that physical clues will be faked if someone is trying to cover up a crime. No matter what, nothing is sure and all should look at multiple sources - when you can.

As for the who would believe who, go to Vatican city. Get a priest to punch you . When the cops show up, see who they believe. (Assuming the priest lies, of course.)

Sources of information (the people) will be "believed" until it is shown that they aren't trustworthy - for whatever reason. Like a junior agent is less likely to sway the agent incharge if there is a senior agent contradicting the junior agent. Generally because thesenior agent had to work to get to the postition they are at. The same goes for the court astrologer. He/she had to go through quite a lot to get there, various loyalty and proficiency tests, probably by being the former astrologers apprentice, and other ways I can't think of right now. So when they say that a "Great Evil" is coming from the east, likely the king/emporer/whatever is going to put things in motion to watch for this evil. (And continually hound the seer to get more details!)

[providence13]

And, in a magic/game world, they can be alot more accurate, (if they want to be.).

But yeah, they may still have as much (I say more) pull as a priest (for example) today.

So, would Sherlock Holmes have been as perceptive if he had access to a few of these spell Lists? And if so, what more could he have done? Or not...

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

The use of misdirection magics is a great way to make sure that the players aren't entirely comfortable with the results. but physical evidence can be faked as well, so it isn't perfect and can lead them astray. In fact, due to the generally fewer individuals who can use magic to misdirect, it is more likely that physical clues will be faked if someone is trying to cover up a crime. No matter what, nothing is sure and all should look at multiple sources - when you can.

If you do agree about that, why do you think divination spells give such an "unfair advantage"? A well-prepared murderer would just fake evidence!

As for the who would believe who, go to Vatican city. Get a priest to punch you . When the cops show up, see who they believe. (Assuming the priest lies, of course.)

But I'm at the same level of influence as the priest, which was the point I addressed: "Also, being influential is a relative thing. Of course, if as a 19th level Cleric (Death's Tale True), he's being investigating the murder of a local farmer, I'd expect the other peasants and the local authorities to believe him, but I'd generally expect his opponents to be about the same political level than him, meaning just as influential, so it'd still be his word against the other person's word --therefore still posing the problem of finding more "concrete" proofs."

If in the Vatican, two priests of the same rank were to quarrel, none of them would have the random local cop believe him more than the other.

The same goes for the court astrologer. He/she had to go through quite a lot to get there, various loyalty and proficiency tests, probably by being the former astrologers apprentice, and other ways I can't think of right now. So when they say that a "Great Evil" is coming from the east, likely the king/emporer/whatever is going to put things in motion to watch for this evil. (And continually hound the seer to get more details!)

So you're saying that astrologers in the past, in our own RL world, had magical powers? Or that the royal astrologer could freely accuse the queen for plotting against the king and be immediately believed?
I still cannot see your point, and how you ever proved that the actual existence of divination spells would unbalance anything. The only things I saw was that you tried to tell me that such people did exist (something I said anyway) and was trusted (something I said anyway as well).

[RandalThor]

In the past people have said how much a problem the Astrologer and the Seer can be but what about the Clerics Communal Ways spell list?
MDC

I would imagine, if the spells are similar (and they usually are) then the same problems would arise. The ability to check out the future in any way can be a huge advantage. Same as being able to "watch" the past. Wouldn't every law enforcement in the world love those two abilities?!?

I am not sure as to where I said they would give an "unfair" advantage. I agreed that if the astrologer and seer spells gave the GM problems, then the cleric's communal ways would as well (because spell capabilities tend to overlap in RM). Then I said, that I thought that law enforcement would love them - and they would. Being able to actually see what happened at a crime scene would be of great help in law enforcement.

At no time did I say that info gathering spells were perfect or that they couldn't be gotten around. Also, that those of "same political influence" couldn't make them hairy. It does in our world, politics gets in the way of everything, the truth most of all. and I did not say that astrologers in our world had magical powers - lets just assume that when I talk about a being having magical powers it is for a game-world, unless I state otherwise (which will likely not happen).

I don't know why my statement about law enforcement agencies loving info gathering magic bothered you but it was just a quick, of the cuff statement. Not meaning anything deep or politically or psychologically disturbing by it. Just an idea that popped into my head.

As of now I am over this thread. Unless we want to actually discuss game ideas as to how to work the info gathering spells.

[markc]

 I also think that depending on your game world a 20th level spell caster might not just be a peoples beck and call every time the law enforcement would like them to.
MDC

[providence13]

MDC, that's a good point.

There has been a murder! Because of the nature of the crime and family of the deceased, a Constable has been dispatched and will arrive in 3 days. Until then, the local hobbit sherrif has to be the detective.

After 3 days, the Constable arrives and our good sherrif brings them up to speed on the case.

If the Constable then deems additional help is required, they may send for the Astrologer/Seer...
The case could well be a week or two old at that rate.

The Seer could be on a diplomatic .... ship bound for the port of Alderan... something about an impregnable keep of an evil wizard...

Other things do pop up when you're the Seer.

[RandalThor]

Yeah, it would work much like DNA evidence does now - usually it is only bothered with for murders and the like. Big crimes that, if not dealt with could cause undue problems for the government, a simple pick pocketing would not warrent usch attention - unless the pocket was that of the king and the thing stolen was his undelivered love note to the chamber maid. 

[Arioch]

But the real problem is that the players know that the spell tells the truth (we're talking about a game so we shouldn't forget about the people around the table!) and, unless you reword it, explaining clearely what it can and cannot show, as Rasyr did, they'll know what the solution to the mystery is.

Well, I'd believe that, back in the dark ages in our RL world, most of the wizards, seers, astrologers, witches and the rest did believe whatever means they used to see things told them the truth as well...

But mages and seer of the real world aren't (for what we know!  ) controlled by people sitted around to play a game. I don't care very much of what the in game effects of the spell are. My problem with that spell is that it solves the mystery for me, the player!
I don't like that, because solving mysteries is one of the parts of the game I enjoy most and DTT deprives me of great part of it.

[rdanhenry]

If you want to solve mysteries without using spells, then don't play characters with spells that gather information. Problem solved.

[markc]

Arioch;
 I think you are assuming that you get the right info, the whole info and the spell is not being interfeared with in any way.
 You can also introduce new items, talents, abilities or spells to combat the DDT or DT spells or any other type of spell that is trouble in your game. Or you can also just replace the DT and DTT spell with others if it fits your game world better.

MDC