Author Topic: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?  (Read 4450 times)

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Offline markc

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Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« on: July 24, 2009, 04:11:09 PM »
 In the past people have said how much a problem the Astrologer and the Seer can be but what about the Clerics Communal Ways spell list?
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2009, 05:42:55 PM »
I would imagine, if the spells are similar (and they usually are) then the same problems would arrise. The ability to check out the future in any way can be a huge advantage. Same as being able to "watch" the past. Wouldn't every law enforcement in the world love those two abilities?!?
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Offline providence13

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2009, 09:48:30 PM »
My Causality Probability understanding ain't what it used to be, but even if the players know "the future".. well, that's the future before they looked...
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2009, 02:31:57 AM »
My Causality Probability understanding ain't what it used to be, but even if the players know "the future".. well, that's the future before they looked...

Unless the GM is particulary sadic/fatalistic!  :)

In the past people have said how much a problem the Astrologer and the Seer can be but what about the Clerics Communal Ways spell list?
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Communal Ways gives more or less the same problems of the Seer/Astrologer lists (actually, it gives more problems than the lists of those profession, as it contains the infamous "Death's Tale True" spell!  ;D)

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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2009, 09:16:53 AM »
That spell list contains a number of spells.

Intuitions -- these show visions of what would happen based on a specific action. The thing to remember here is that further from that specific action you get, the more alternatives will be available. For example, take Inuitions III, the action is "opening that door". The vision will show opening the door, seeing the orcs on the other side, the orcs seeing you, and the onset of melee, and then the visions will start fragmenting, showing PC A defeating an orc, and then being defeated by the same orc, showing the party winning, showing them losing, etc.. The future is always in motion.....

Now, the players will then likely setup and prepare for opening the door once a player has seen that -- keep track of time!!! -- because they didn't open the door immediately, things will change. The orcs may have left the room, more may have joined them, they may have heard the PCs on the other side of the door preparing (and thus begin preparing themselves, etc...

The thing to remember is that everything is always in motion, and always changing, so unless an Intuitions is acted upon immediately, the future shown will change.

Dreams -- These spells give the caster a dream about a specific topic. However, dreams are mostly symbolic in nature, and thus must be interpreted. They will not give straight answers to specific topics. Nothing will be straight forward, the dreamer must figure out the dreams given.

Death's Tale -- This and the Death's Tale True are often the ones folks find the most problematic for GMs. The thing many folks forget is that these are visions, as such, they are pulling images from the past. This means that the images will be from the key points in the chain of events leading to the death.

For the 6th level spell, the vision is from the viewpoint of the dead character. And the image of killer will be an image of him at the time he caused the death. If the killer were in disguise, you would see him in the disguise, not in his normal form.

The same applies for Death's Tale True -- if the killer were in disguise, you would get images of him in disguise, not in his true form.

DTT says  "understanding of the reason(s) the deceased died". This means the cause of death, not the motivations behind it. If it were a heart attack, you would get a vision that gives that. If it were poison, you would get a vision that indicates that, perhaps even with enough detail that a little research could let you identify the poison.

"exactly who the killer was" -- again, this is the person that was directly responsible for the death, the one who gave the poison, or put the poison in the deceased's food, the one who stabbed him, etc... Again, it shows the killer when performing the action that causes the death, so disguises would be shown if worn.

"who was ultimately responsible (if any)" -- This could be the same as the killer, or it could be some noble who idly wished, in the presence of underlings, that the deceased was no long a thorn in his side, and whose underling took that idle wish and then acted upon it in a manner in which the noble didn't actually mean. Or it could be somebody who actively wanted the deceased dead and who hired the killer. Or the death could be an accident (oops, the visitor dropped the soap on the way back to his chamber from the bathing room, and the prince stepped on it and fell down the stairs and broke his neck -- the visitor is responsible, but it was still an accident (no killer!))

However, as with the killer, the vision will show the image of this person (if there is such a person) at the time that they initiated the sequence of events that led to the death. So if the person is in disguise, it will show the disguise.

These spells should NOT be treated as all powerful. They can only show what existed at those moments.



As for the Communal Ways spell list, it is a Cleric Base List, this means that there needs to be a Cleric capable of casting those spells. If there is no Cleric, or no trusted cleric (as only the cleric sees the visions, and he can always lie...), then there will be nobody to cast these spells.

Conversely, if these spells are common, then there WILL be counter-measures to protect against them. Devices that blur the character's images in scrying spells, or that block them altogether, etc..


Offline Elton Robb

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2009, 08:00:15 AM »


Dreams -- These spells give the caster a dream about a specific topic. However, dreams are mostly symbolic in nature, and thus must be interpreted. They will not give straight answers to specific topics. Nothing will be straight forward, the dreamer must figure out the dreams given.

Not all the time, and not with all the people.  There are some people I know who have dreams of the future, and their dreams aren't at all symbolic.  A PC, yes, I can see where you want to keep things cryptic. ;)
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 06:31:59 AM »
How much of a seer would a Seer be if he cannot see either in the past or in the future? ;D

"I'm a seer and I'm able to foresee... only things every normal people can see and already know!"

Wouldn't every law enforcement in the world love those two abilities?!?
Mayhap they do, how would you know? Do you think everyone would just believe some spellcaster because he says "Heh, I can see the past and I know the killer was someone sent by the Duke!"
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Offline providence13

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 09:14:10 AM »
Although waxing and waning in popularity, I think "remote viewing" is still used...

Hey... does it specifically state somewhere that "images, scenes, information" or even "exactly who" information is given right away, that instant?

Maybe the caster has the info, but now they must interpret it. For remote viewing, it could take a little while to pick out the info in the sketch. Dreaming could be an excellent way to discern the results of the spell, but that will take some time; 4 hrs min a sleep cycle, IIRC.

Maybe they could roll to interpret the info 1/hr, or 1/day. "You have the info, now you have to understand it."

This may not apply to spells that say "round/minutes" in the future, but it would take away some of the "give me the answer now" from impetuous PC's.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 11:21:07 AM »
In the past people have said how much a problem the Astrologer and the Seer can be but what about the Clerics Communal Ways spell list?
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Never had any problems with the Seer's, Astrologers or other profession's ability to take a glimpse into the future. As Rasyr mentioned above, many of the spells give not too much detail. So as a GM I always saw these spells as a chance to subtly direct the PCs, and not as problematic spells.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 11:31:32 AM »
I said it in the 'invisibility' thread but I think it's worth mentioning again: imo, people with a problem with Death's Tale and the like have a problem with magic itself. I mean, "lifegiving" spells can resurrect a character? Isn't that a "a huge advantage"? "Wouldn't every (being in existence) in the world love those two abilities"? What about Unbarring Ways spells, that allow you to unlock doors! Isn't that a "a huge advantage"? "Wouldn't every (burglar) in the world love those abilities"? And don't get me start with teleportation spells, illusion spells and mind controlling spells!

Obviously, in our world where magic doesn't exist, someone with any of such spells (or, in fact, any spell) would have a "huge advantage". On a world where magic is widespread? Not as much, if only since it's widespread, so many people other than you have access to it (so, you're not "advantaged" compared to them) and, since it's widespread, people certainly have created a way (magical or not) to counter it in most cases (e.g. spells clouding the scrying).
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Steve_990

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 12:01:18 PM »
I think this is one of those times where the GM can choose in each instance how this effects play depending on it's importance. Rasyr already states some effective ways of GMing these spells so they are still useful and worth taking, but not 'game ruining'.

This is a game where magic is prevalent. So a cunning assassin would potentially understand this and get magical aid to prevent such scrying.

This is really only an issue if a GM doesn't know how to handle it and it break a pivotal point in their game.

Offline vroomfogle

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 12:11:35 PM »
Obviously, in our world where magic doesn't exist, someone with any of such spells (or, in fact, any spell) would have a "huge advantage". On a world where magic is widespread? Not as much, if only since it's widespread, so many people other than you have access to it (so, you're not "advantaged" compared to them) and, since it's widespread, people certainly have created a way (magical or not) to counter it in most cases (e.g. spells clouding the scrying).

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 10:53:24 PM »
Wouldn't every law enforcement in the world love those two abilities?!?
Mayhap they do, how would you know? Do you think everyone would just believe some spellcaster because he says "Heh, I can see the past and I know the killer was someone sent by the Duke!"

If someone continually told me what would/did happen and was continually right, eventually I would believe them. In a magical world, where people throw fireballs from their bare hands and demons can be summoned from one of the many hells, I would likely believe them right off the bat - it's a magical world Charlie Brown!

The powers that be, in worlds of magic that possess spellcasters able to see the future (even if it is only a possible future), would have them on the payroll for sure. What better way to determine if there is a threat to your power-base than days, months, or even years before the threat would occur?
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2009, 11:07:33 PM »
I tend to find, that channeling sourced divination runs into channeling based blockage. . .first time a paladin of mine used Death's Tale, the killing was shown, with the killer's form masked in a dark cloud. . .the killer was a champion of another god, and so my god's vision was tampered by his god's blockage. . .

I eventually found that only by dragging a body onto holy ground (like in a church) could I bias the result in my favor when one of these conflicts arose, so it limited the "field" utility of the spells when the killer was a contrary cultist. (When you're a paladin, all to often the enemy is "The Enemy" and this came up fairly often.)
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2009, 04:40:30 AM »
If someone continually told me what would/did happen and was continually right, eventually I would believe them.
Truth is what you want to believe is true, not what actually happens, especially if you're in a position of power.[/quote]

Quote
In a magical world, where people throw fireballs from their bare hands and demons can be summoned from one of the many hells, I would likely believe them right off the bat - it's a magical world Charlie Brown!
The existence of magic wouldn't change human nature, so people would still be as likely to lie as they do in our world, and people still prone to believe whatever is favourable to them. As such, charlatans would still exist and one being "continually right" may just be a fine con artist.

Quote
The powers that be, in worlds of magic that possess spellcasters able to see the future (even if it is only a possible future), would have them on the payroll for sure.
But the powers that be have their own agenda, which may (often?) be different from truth (see my previous point). Accusing your opponent of the murder of another opponent is usually more useful than acknowledging you are the culprit! Also, having someone "on the payroll" doesn't mean anything about how that someone can still be bribed, blackmailed, controlled, etc. Not to mention the one you have "on the payroll" has his own agenda as well...

Quote
What better way to determine if there is a threat to your power-base than days, months, or even years before the threat would occur?
For that reason, kings from all times, in our real world, had a cohort of seers, astrologers, and a plethora of people supposed to forewarn them from any and all disasters. Does that mean any of them ever told the truth or had any true power? I don't think so...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 04:51:29 AM by OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol »
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Nders

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2009, 06:43:21 AM »
Olf nailed it yet again  :)

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2009, 06:44:40 PM »
Well then I guess the Secret Service should give up their guns as they must be just as likely to shoot the President as to protect him.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2009, 02:34:36 AM »
Sorry, wrong example. I should have said we should shut down the CIA, NSA, KGB, The Weather Channel and all of the other intelligence gathering organizations because some of the people working for them will lie about what they learn.

But we can't do that can we? Even though we know...KNOW that some of the agents will get compromised, be turned, go rogue, and probably some other situations I have no idea about, we still must pursue these avenues of information gathering and possible future scenario projection because to do otherwise would put us (whoever doesn't) way behind the those that do. Do you really think that just because what we are talking about is a magical source that people would act differently? I don't.

As humans we use the tools we can get, even knowing that those tools aren't perfect and may break. You don't know if your pike is going not break, but you still set it to receive the calvary charge.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2009, 02:41:53 AM »
/Nerd mode on:

Quote
For that reason, kings from all times, in our real world, had a cohort of seers, astrologers, and a plethora of people supposed to forewarn them from any and all disasters. Does that mean any of them ever told the truth or had any true power? I don't think so...

To tell the truth cohort astrologers etc, were actually able to predict disasters (in the original sense of the word: "evil star" or "astronomical aberrance", from  "dis-" = ill favoured + "astrum"= star). They weren't infallible, but those failing to predict such phenomenons too much usually lost the court's favour quite quickly...

/Nerd mode off.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Astrologer, Seer and Clerics Communal Ways?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2009, 03:06:48 AM »
One Cleric's testimony is probably enough to convict the ne'er-do-well murderer of a prostitute (if magic even were assigned to the case). When Baron X drives a poisoned blade through the back of Count Y, you may need to get three Cleric's from different temples to confirm the identity of the killer before the Baron gets the axe.

In real life, we deal with unreliability of human sources by getting multiple sources whenever possible. That's why conglomerate swallowing of news sources is so serious and why there are a lot of different crime labs.
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