Author Topic: RM First Impression and a question  (Read 3229 times)

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Offline Ido Tamir

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RM First Impression and a question
« on: July 15, 2009, 04:36:10 AM »
Hi,

I had my 3.5e group (all hardcore players and avid Roleplayers) testdrive RMFRP for one session. I converted their D&D characters (smoothed some corners just for the sake of playtest) and we did a 4 hour session. They started with 6th level PCs.

Note: I have experience with RM, and I rather use it than D&D. The reasons for converting are many, and mainly the fact that I can game more often by using RM and not D&D due to preperation time...

Here is what they said (mainly regarding GAME mechanics):

1. A Goblin with a short bow (and a lucky GM) can be far more dangerous than 2 Minotarus closing in!   ;D
2. Combat is far more interesting in RM, with Criticals, Fumbles.
3. However, if you suffer a critical, you might be put out for several rounds (One PCs suffered 3 or 4 stun rounds and couldn't recover), which is a drag.
    That player (who was basically a fighter) didn't like it at all.
4. Instant Kill is possible (one PC dropped a Minotaur with a lucky roll). They all laughted in delight when it happened, until they realized I'm using the same tables for the Monster attacks!  ;D
5. Working as a Group is very important.
6. Spell casting (with the modifiers, preperation, RR and all) can be complicated to resolve (many rolls with lots of modifiers).
7. But - the spell lists are very rich, and provide "more to work with".
8. Many great player options in building his PC.
9. The math is not an issue.
10. Healing is a big issue (they didn't have a healer in the original group, they relayed on potions etc).

The only issue I had is with a player who feels that:

1. His lack of knowledge in the rules will prevent him from building an interesting PC (he likes to find what he calls a "Build", meaning a PC that excell in one or several areas).
2. You might go down in combat, or suffer a too dire injury to contribute, and while the group carries on one player feels useless.
3. He felt that while RM has more options for a fighter (in a battle), he had a hard time with all the numbers involved (penalty for movement, OB/DB split, Parrying limitations, tracking damage, bleeding and stun).

The rest seemed OK with the system, and told me they don't mind to convert.

Any thoughts or ideas?

 

Offline Mungo

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2009, 05:34:27 AM »
Hi,

Good to see that it was overall a positive experience.

Concerning the person you talked about, my ideas are:

Re 1) Make him understand that (at least if you don't use Talent Law), there are no uber-characters. Basically the choice is between specialist who excels early in a few areas (i.e. buys 2 ranks for his preferred skills) or well-rounded character who needs quite a few levels until he really shines (only 1 rank per level even on major skills). The key is that the GM allows only skills that matter, nothing is more frustrating than putting points into f.e. Duping just to find out that it is not used at all (like in our group).

Re 2) Introduce Fate Points, in our campaign they allow 1 roll to be rerolled.

Re 3) Yes, but its just a question of getting used to it. In a few sessions it will feel natural.

BR Juergen

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 07:07:25 AM »
And make sure to introduce them to the wonders of herbs.....  ;D

Most especially those that do Stun Relief. One of the ideas we introduced in HARP was the Herbal Bandoleer, which could hold up to something like 20 doses of Herbs - which they could purchase in prepackaged little leaf wrappers (i.e. fantasy capsules). With the Bandoleer, the basically got a -10 to other actions in the round, but could take a dose of an herb so long as they had a free hand.

Another option for healing would be to perhaps include some minor healing in all realms. For example, take Concussion's Ways, an open Channeling list, and say that it is also a Closed Essence and Closed Mentalism list, and thus your spell casters can aid in minor healing at the very least.

As for the guy not used to all of the modifier -- yes, he will easily get used to them. Make him out a card with a list of the most common modifiers that apply, that he can reference more easily than trying to look it up in a book.


Offline Steve_990

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 11:05:34 AM »
Our group used to go into battle with stun removal herbs in their mouth and would bite down once they were stunned... seemed to work ok :)

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 11:47:43 AM »
Our group used to go into battle with stun removal herbs in their mouth and would bite down once they were stunned... seemed to work ok :)

We would do the same thing (if there was time before hand).

Offline Trikk

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2009, 12:47:55 PM »
Here is what they said (mainly regarding GAME mechanics):

1. A Goblin with a short bow (and a lucky GM) can be far more dangerous than 2 Minotarus closing in!   ;D
2. Combat is far more interesting in RM, with Criticals, Fumbles.
3. However, if you suffer a critical, you might be put out for several rounds (One PCs suffered 3 or 4 stun rounds and couldn't recover), which is a drag.
    That player (who was basically a fighter) didn't like it at all.
4. Instant Kill is possible (one PC dropped a Minotaur with a lucky roll). They all laughted in delight when it happened, until they realized I'm using the same tables for the Monster attacks!  ;D
5. Working as a Group is very important.
6. Spell casting (with the modifiers, preperation, RR and all) can be complicated to resolve (many rolls with lots of modifiers).
7. But - the spell lists are very rich, and provide "more to work with".
8. Many great player options in building his PC.
9. The math is not an issue.
10. Healing is a big issue (they didn't have a healer in the original group, they relayed on potions etc).

1. There are more extreme ranges of luck than in many other games (although rolling 3x20 on an attack can instantly kill anything in 3.0 or 3.5,) but it's very rare that something like that happens and you can reduce the risks to the point where it's not something to worry about.

2. Yes, although I would say that initiative system is what makes it more interesting than D&D.

3. Explain what happens to him, don't just tell him "you're stunned for x rounds." A stun doesn't mean you're out though, you can still act just not cast spells or hit stuff with your pointy stick. When you're stunned, you're basically rocked but not out.

4. Coming from a "Save or Die" system, this shouldn't worry them.  ;D

5. Agreed, for example you should let the lay healer and magician take care of the remaining minotaur while you check the treasure chest behind him.

6. This is probably the biggest change from 3.x to RM, having to actually succeed at casting the spell rather than it just working automatically. Make sure the spellcasters read through the necessary rules so they fully understand how it works. Since they'll spend 2-3 turns on a single spell, it'll suck to hear that it doesn't resolve as they thought it would once they actually cast it.

7. If you have any munchkins in your group, their eyes probably lit up when they saw the massive Spell Law content.

8. Yes - which is why I hate converting from "less detailed" systems! Give them the option of rerolling, please! If you have a campaign then you could say that they can reroll, but with the same concept as before (or "remaking" their old character.)

9. For some reason, our group has massive problems doing complicated calculations like: 17+4+2-5

Usually the calculator is brought out to take care of it.

10. I disagree. You simply have to get rid of the old fantasy game cliches you have in your head and look at it from your character's point of view. Keep yourself protected, overwhelm the enemy, strike where he is most vulnerable, etc. Something really important that we keep forgetting to do is moving in and out of range of enemies. Forcing a conflicting action roll to even be able to attack is a great weapon and denies the enemy the chance to use full attack or acting in the deliberate phase.

You simply don't want someone to strike you first, or at all, ever.

Quote
The only issue I had is with a player who feels that:

1. His lack of knowledge in the rules will prevent him from building an interesting PC (he likes to find what he calls a "Build", meaning a PC that excell in one or several areas).
2. You might go down in combat, or suffer a too dire injury to contribute, and while the group carries on one player feels useless.
3. He felt that while RM has more options for a fighter (in a battle), he had a hard time with all the numbers involved (penalty for movement, OB/DB split, Parrying limitations, tracking damage, bleeding and stun).

1. Making a build should be discouraged in my opinion, unless he can produce a good character concept for it. It's not nearly as good to optimize a small range of skills in RM as in most other games though. Builds work best in games that have very limited but diverse options.

2. This is something I've heard too, but I'm not sure what the person is thinking. Read it slowly:

"You might go down in combat" - yes..? If there was no chance of going down in combat, why even play it? Just skip it and say "you defeat <insert opponents> and move on."

"or suffer a too dire injury to contribute" - this I understand a bit better, since it's coming from a D&D player and D&D doesn't really have any negative consequences of taking damage before you go down from them. Ask him if he can suggest a good alternative, or maybe suggest to him that he can skip all stuns and other injuries, but will take extra hits instead. So he'll be able to fight until he's out of hits.

I think this mentality is the result of video gaming, but to me the interesting part of playing a RPG is that you can't always just keep trucking, fighting everything you see and know that your character is practically immortal. Others feel that to have fun, they want to develop the same character for years and that means they will have to be protected, either by the GM or the system itself.

3. There's a lot of bookkeeping for sure. That's simply in the nature of a detailed game.

Offline markc

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2009, 01:47:07 PM »
1) Build; What I have players do is sit down and take a look at what they want to be good at. Record the skills I think are required to do that. They modify the list and buy at least 1 rank and often 2 ranks every level.
2) Make up a hit recording sheet that has various columns for the various combat options.

Story about stun that may help.
 I was playing a Ranger and was in the front of the group fighting a large array of henchmen as well as their spell casting bosses. Anyway the bosses saw me as a threat and through a shock bolt stunned me for X rounds. I kept on pushing forward through the henchmen and so I kept on receiving at least 1 shock bolt and sometimes two a round. In the battle I was stunned for around 16 rounds and got to do very little besides absorb shock bolts and attacks instead of others. But that was very important as my PC took attacks that others would have taken and if a GM plays it right the NPC's do not know if I am stunned or not so they keep on attacking me because I stumbled forward. BTW we also used the rule that 1 round of stun was worth 10 hits to see if you went down and there were quite a few times it was very close to me hitting the floor. The fact I stayed up dramatically changed the way the NPC's tactically moved, their actions and in general how the battle went as I had the most hits and the rest of the group might have had to run away if I went down.

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Offline David Johansen

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2009, 01:48:19 PM »
Our group used to go into battle with stun removal herbs in their mouth and would bite down once they were stunned... seemed to work ok :)

I'll have to add a note to a few criticals.

"Swallow and gag on anything in your mouth (like wads of rare herbage).  10 rounds stunned, dies in ten rounds without firstaid."

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 02:25:17 PM »
Our group used to go into battle with stun removal herbs in their mouth and would bite down once they were stunned... seemed to work ok :)

Until the introduction of the "Stunned, No Chewing" result is added to the new Rolemaster Ultimate crit tables.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 02:35:22 PM »
Until the introduction of the "Stunned, No Chewing" result is added to the new Rolemaster Ultimate crit tables.

LOL...

But, really herbs are a must in ICE games: never go adventuring without your stash of herbs!  ;D
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Offline Trikk

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2009, 08:33:05 AM »
BTW we also used the rule that 1 round of stun was worth 10 hits to see if you went down and there were quite a few times it was very close to me hitting the floor.

I think the official stun limit of 10 + 2 * Con bonus works pretty well.

Offline pastaav

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2009, 03:58:15 PM »
1. His lack of knowledge in the rules will prevent him from building an interesting PC (he likes to find what he calls a "Build", meaning a PC that excell in one or several areas).

Talking about builds I think it important for the players to realize that RM remain playable at very high level. The sweet spot when things work in harmony for D&D 3.5 is smaller than the sweet spot for RM.

On the flip side is that this has made the designers of RM more reluctant to add builds that can be realized quickly. Since just about anything is learnable by anyone the system is set up so that it takes many levels to realize the good builds. There is simply very little possibility to excel in any area at all until the charcter has taken a number of levels.
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Offline Joshua24601

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2009, 07:09:15 AM »
Fate points were mentioned before and can work to reduce the likely hood of death caused by bad luck... we only only allow points to be used if a roll essentially guarantees the death of a PC... ex: 'death' crit roll, failed MM results in falling to death... however because it only saves the 'death' roll.. PC's who make very poor decisions (like wander off alone) are still in good danger of death.
BTW.. 'Official' rules for Fate Points are in the Channeling Companion.

The riskiness of combat is one of the things that I find REALLY appealing about RM.  When weapons get drawn things get very dangerous, so PC's will be far less willing to go at it with anything that looks at them funny.  PC's will intimidate, talk, or on rare occasions, buy their way out of fighting... especially when they don't have the advantage.
I think that's all fantastic.. because it's role-playing... not hack'n'slash. (but that's a personal preference that all might not share)


As far as tracking damage stun and all that jazz... we created (I'm sure were not the first) damage sheets for each player. 
Each sheet has a space for major body parts (legs, arms, torso, head), to notate damage sustained... and a box for total minuses from crits.  Below we have an area where you can fill in bubbles for hits taken and PP's spent (and endurance if you really want the paperwork!).. now I'm not normally a 'bubble' kinda guy... I'd rather just write numbers on paper... but we arranged our bubbles so they're clustered in 4 groups (for each PP's and Hits).  You fill in one group, then after it's full, move to the next group.  The groups are each 1/4 the total...  This is so that you can easily look down and see that you've lost more then 25% of your hits and get a -10... or you've used more then 50% of PP's and get a -20 for spells. (of course bubbles have to be added every time PC's level)
Under that we've got a little reference info.. common OB modifiers for combat.. stuff like that.
Slide it into a plastic sheet and use dry erase pens.... and it's pretty elegant and easy reference for beginners.

As far as tracking bleeding/stun/no-parry/must-parry/spells.
Sometimes we've used poker chips.  Each red chip is a bleed... yellow is a round of stun (remove 1 each round...)... and so on.  I also often use a die to track short duration spells, 1rd/level, since those don't always outlast battles.


We've enhanced spell casting speed a couple ways.
1. PC's have a copy of their spell lists in their character 'book'.
2. Each list is HIGHLIGHTED or checkmarked up to the level that they have.
3. On the top of each list the skill with that list is written so PC's don't have to go back to their character sheet to reference it.
4. To save time, and kill trees, I printed out a copy of the SCSM (spell casting) chart for each spell list I have... in my character book I've got all my paperwork in plastic sheets and if you open to a list, I have the chart on the left sheet and spell list on the right... so if I know my minuses I can do all the math and figuring without having to skip around all over the book.. or look for a loose printout of the chart.

Finally the biggest thing we do (most often with spells) is 'estimate unless it's close'... we know the character's got a spell that won't be easy (because of damage, modifiers, whatever) but we know it isn't crazy hard... so we just have the player roll it.  If his roll is high we don't even bother doing the specific math.... if his roll was questionable.. then we figure it out.
You do need to know the charts pretty well.. or have figured out rolls with similar modifiers recently to be able to estimate well.

Hope that's useful..
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Offline Ido Tamir

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2009, 01:52:09 PM »
Joshua24601 - Thanks for the advice!

Offline damilano

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2009, 10:50:22 AM »

The rest seemed OK with the system, and told me they don't mind to convert.

Any thoughts or ideas?


Come up with one heck of a fun background option for the fellow who has reservations.  Perhaps some form of minor noble lineage, resulting in a story line that involves:

1.  The pauperizing of the family by a rival and the family's efforts to regain their manor and lands

2.  A disgrace on the family that must be dealt with so that the family can regain its good name.  This could be something like:
      a.  A member of the family has become a menace -- vampire, brigand lord, captain in an enemy army, black sorcerer, an insane berserker, you name it.
      b.  A member of the family has gone on a spy mission to the enemy's lands and is thought to have gone renegade
      c.  The disgrace has been manufactured by a rival and can be exposed only with clues the character possesses.

3.  The character of noble blood is witness to the fall of his people to (insert name of black sorcerer here) and becomes an agent of the government-in-exile

4.  As 3, except through a series of extraordinary circumstances, it appears that the character is a traitor to his people, even though the exact opposite is true.  I ran this once, and it was a smashing success.  The character had all of the responsibility and drama of noble lineage and almost none of the benefits.  Worked great!

5.  A feud between clans has weakened the region and made it open to domination by (insert name of black sorcerer here).  Only one of true blood (and of appropriate skills, experience, etc) can unite the clans and rid the land of evil.

These are all campaign-level stories, but they may serve to capture the attention of your fence-sitter.

CMC
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Offline damilano

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Re: RM First Impression and a question
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2009, 10:53:49 AM »

But, really herbs are a must in ICE games: never go adventuring without your stash of herbs!  ;D


My first level adventurers in a recent game had among them a talented herbalist (background option) who found three "doses" of Athelas in the wild and was able to prepare them.

All three doses were gone before the end of the six-hour session.

CL has an excellent selection of herbs.  Use it, for Pete's sake!

CMC
What do you mean, you didn't buy the Perception skill?