Topic: cantrips

[providence13]

So, for me, the first few levels of spells are the cantrips.

Randal Thor, I think I hear what you're saying; and that's cool.

I think starting at 3rd lvl is great for RM; increases the character longevity a bit.. and for these groups, you may not need cantrips at all.

Some wacky cats do start at 1st lvl and for those groups, cantrips might work out.

[markc]

 What I was thinking of is that at specific levels some basic spells could be very useful. At 1st level maybe Cantrips but a 5th level maybe some more useful Cantrips and so on. I guess what it is is having some spells at specific ranks or levels that anyone can buy but they get more useful the higher level you get or the higher level Cantrip you buy is more useful. Also IMO Cantrips level is equal to its Cantrip level +1. So 0 level is 1st and 5th would be 6th. The spells are just very basic in nature and do not have any of there spell stats modified by the players level or ranks in the spell list if you use that instead of PC level.

 Got to go because it is late but I think that makes some sort of sense.

MDC

[providence13]

MDC, playtest it and let us know. 

What you are describing sounds a lot like a "Working Guild Member List"
Perhaps many guilds have their own lists of useful spells. Glassblowers could have Heat Glass, Snip Glass, Insulate (to cool glass slowly..)

For me, I'm keeping it simple..
0 lvl spells require no PP, only last for concentration, may take a round or two to prep, can only be 1/4 to 1/3 or so of a 1st lvl spell. Cantrips can't duplicate any 1st lvl spell. They will not increase in power; that's called 1st and 2nd lvl spells. They can be similar, but much weaker in results.
I think there should still be a roll; Spell Mastery with that List is what I'm using for now...
So basically, use Spell Mastery to cast a weaker version of the 1st spell on the List with no PP!

[markc]

 IMO I think that is where you might get into problems; the zero PP cost to me is big.

MDC

[providence13]

Ok MDC, you're right.

The RM magic system doesn't really have a place for this.
Or does it..?

I'm not totally familiar with the Essence Companion, but under Ritual Magic...

Treat Cantrips as 0 lvl Ritual Magic that causes an effect of 1/3 or 1/4 similar to a 1st lvl spell.
The only Rituals needed are Concentration, perhaps a Gesture and often a Word (Magical Language perhaps..?).
If Power Points must be spent (up to you/GM) then how about 1PP/ min (rnd) of effect and must maintain concentration.? Being on the Own Base List is +25, IIRC, and having Spell Mastery in the List is + 25 while each "Focus" that you're short is -25. I may have made up my three areas of focus, listed above, (don't know if they're on the charts) but it sounds like the +/- should at least be a wash.

Tim wants to light his torch while wading through the flooded sewers. His tender is wet so he tries a firefinger cantrip having the base list Fire Law. If his +/- is at least a wash (IMHO he should get some +), then he snaps his fingers, twirls his index finger and speaks the power word "Zippo!" having concentrated for 2 rounds to , most likely, have an inch or two of flame on his finger. My way, no power points. If he has to spend them in other games, OK, have fun!

Now he finds that his torch is wet too! Getting angry he throws away his torch and concentrates on keeping his finger lit. Now, I suppose, he could spend 1PP/rnd to keep it lit. (Inefficient, but possible. For efficiancy, cast a spell!) Maybe not in my mind, but I don't want someone soap boxing what to do in my game so I respect everybody else's.

[Arioch]

Treat Cantrips as 0 lvl Ritual Magic that causes an effect of 1/3 or 1/4 similar to a 1st lvl spell.

Great idea!

[markc]

 I think there is another way around it being that a spell caster can enchant an item to be a focus and every PP lets them cast X # of cantrips. For a cleric it can be as simple as a holy symbol for a essence user maybe an ring, wand etc and for a mentalism user maybe a gem or other mental focus item.
 
 Yes rituals are another way to do it as IMO time is a good offset for no PP. Or maybe say if you want to cast the cantrip faster then you have to pay a PP.

MDC

BTW I do have an extra copy of the SUC [I have 3] that I am going to be putting up for sale on EBay. If you want to bid before I put it up send me a PM and maybe we can work a deal. I also have some other triples and some doubles that I am going to be parting with so if you are looking for something just PM me and I will see what I have.

[providence13]

Arioch, thank you kindly!

MDC, that's really nice of you.
 I'll let you know.

[providence13]

MDC,
Cantrip items would be useful... And less disruptive than a Daily item (for example), IMO.
Sort of like an e-tool (entrenching/enlisted man's...shovel) for mages.

"New Cantrip E-tool, by Ronco!! Buy now and receive the patented Pocket Fisherman!!"

Seriously, a staff, ring or pendant... as a magic Daily I or II that only works on cantrips...
It's what every young mage wants before their first big adventure.

[providence13]

Hey MDC,

Mentalist Lists have Presence and Misfeels (lvls 1,2,6,9) as needing no PP..
If they required 1PP/lvl to cast, they'd be pretty handy. As they require no PP, that makes them very tough.
IIRC, some are even instants!
I always took this to be the "bread and butter" of Mentalism. These are at the core of the realm..IMO.

I guess that was the point I was originally trying to make with the no PP cantrips. But the ritual idea just feels right! I knew there was a precedent floating around in my head somewhere. I just had to distract myself to remember it.

[markc]

providence13;
 Yes I almost always forget about those as the person who taught me RM2 required all spells to have PP requirements. I sometimes require PP and sometimes I do not depending on the situation.
 I do not have a solid rule but I am thinking of a couple.
 1) Require a meditation roll before allowing the spell to use no PP. If it fails then it requires PP's.
 2) Allow a specific number of free uses of the skill based on ranks known in the list, a skill, stat bonus, level or something else.
 3) Require a meditation roll at the beginning of the day that will give the number of free uses of the no-PP spells after that they require PP's. 
MDC

[providence13]

I always thought Meditation should play more of a role too!
How can you marshal magical forces if your not centered?

I really want to hear a caster lament "I haven't meditated in hours!"
Fighters are assumed to work out. Thieves are assumed to practice their skills. One could always say that Mentalists are assumed to meditate... but I think that in a game I would enjoy, meditation should be a requirement. I mean, there's a skill for it and everything!

[markc]

I always thought Meditation should play more of a role too!
How can you marshal magical forces if your not centered?

I really want to hear a caster lament "I haven't meditated in hours!"
Fighters are assumed to work out. Thieves are assumed to practice their skills. One could always say that Mentalists are assumed to meditate... but I think that in a game I would enjoy, meditation should be a requirement. I mean, there's a skill for it and everything!

 Yes IMO you can adapt the meditation skill to do almost anything in your game world.
MDC

[ironmaul]

I'm a little late to the party but Providence, I love the idea.

damilano, love those cantrip suggestions. You could really have some fun with those.  

Tim wants to light his torch while wading through the flooded sewers. His tender is wet so he tries a firefinger cantrip having the base list Fire Law. If his +/- is at least a wash (IMHO he should get some +), then he snaps his fingers, twirls his index finger and speaks the power word "Zippo!" having concentrated for 2 rounds to , most likely, have an inch or two of flame on his finger. My way, no power points. If he has to spend them in other games, OK, have fun!

Now he finds that his torch is wet too! Getting angry he throws away his torch and concentrates on keeping his finger lit. Now, I suppose, he could spend 1PP/rnd to keep it lit. (Inefficient, but possible. For efficiancy, cast a spell!) Maybe not in my mind, but I don't want someone soap boxing what to do in my game so I respect everybody else's. Grin

Depends on how one powers thier spells. I like to think a caster could draw the essence into himself and divert it through his finger keeping the flame lite as long as he likes without the concern of running out of PP. You'd have little reason to track PP/essence/mana or whatever it is that gives your spells the juice.

[providence13]

I like to think a caster could draw the essence into himself and divert it through his finger keeping the flame lite as long as he likes without the concern of running out of PP. You'd have little reason to track PP/essence/mana or whatever it is that gives your spells the juice.
Ironmaul, I couldn't agree more.
 
Cantrips don't have to upset anyone's game. It just gives casters another tool to use at very low levels.
For the groups who use "role play" experience, just thinking of new ways to use 0lvl spells could be fun!
GM:"You wake up tied to a chair, hands behind your back. Since you're alive at all, they might want "information."
PC: Thinking... "I can set the ropes on fire....but that would hurt. I could draw moisture from the air to dampen the ropes.. But knowing you, (GM) it will run under the door.. What kind of rope?
GM: Roll....OK, Hemp.
PC: Doesn't hemp have oils that....
GM: Roll... Yes you recall a fine oil can be extracted....but this rope is dry.
PC: I do have the "Living Change" List. I'll try to just shrink my wrists a bit....

Who knows how a caster will react to a certain situation.

[ironmaul]

Unfortunatly, RM's current spell system has put itself in a situation where it can't have 0lvl/0PP spells/cantrips. What would have been prudent in it's creation is not to conform to the 1PP = 1st level spell mechanic. If they would have thought about making first level spells start at 4-5PP then they could have made 1-3PP spells as cantrips. Nothing can be done about it which is a shame...perhaps next version they might take heed...

[rdanhenry]

Allowing magic to handle this sort of routine stuff would allow it to further take the place of skills and contribute to the "magic is too powerful" judgment and in that case I would tend to agree as currently there is some balance between skills as stronger at low level, spells stronger at medium levels, and combinations ultimately ruling at high levels. Boosting spell-casters at the low end really would make them outright better.

[markc]

 Or you can have cantrips replace technology some how in a non-combat non-intense way.
MDC

[providence13]

Allowing magic to handle this sort of routine stuff would allow it to further take the place of skills and contribute to the "magic is too powerful" judgment and in that case I would tend to agree as currently there is some balance between skills as stronger at low level, spells stronger at medium levels, and combinations ultimately ruling at high levels. Boosting spell-casters at the low end really would make them outright better.

I realize that there's a big magic vs skills debate.. I always considered magic to be the casters' skills.
Takes longer to learn.. weak at low ranks...makes up for it later. But with the added danger of Power Perception.. someone will eventually notice you working magic. This doesn't happen with mundane skills.

[providence13]

Or you can have cantrips replace technology some how in a non-combat non-intense way.
MDC, that's what I'm thinking.
Carpenter never learned a List, but he can keep 5 nails standing while he uses skill to drive them in with one hit each. etc...