Topic: Appraisal in RMC?

[thrud]

What skill do you use to evaluate things?
Gems, metals, weapons, armour, jewelry,...

[mibsweden]

I would use Trading, or perhaps some subskill in either Lore: Technical or Lore: General.

[Elton Robb]

Metal Lore, Weapon Lore, Rock Lore, Jewelry Lore, etc.  Just make up a bunch of lore skills.

[giulio.trimarco]

In general you'll appraise with the skill that "use" or "craft" the tool.

If you are skilled swordsman, sure you'll be able to appraise a sword.
If you are an expert rider, you'll know a little about horses.

To the extreeme, sometime a crafter can "potentially" be less skilled in the appraisal process, since only who uses the tool will catch inconsistencies or flaws.

[Winterknight]

I tend to run a relatively skills-light version of RMC, and I tend to give the B.O.D to the players, particularly the key skills.

With that in mind, perception is a good catch-all for appraisal.  It lets you notice the difference in metal tint, the softened edges that might indicate something is gilded, rather than solid gold.  It lets you see the tint changes near the tang, where the metal was overheated during the forging process.  It lets you feel the weight difference between a true coin and a false one.

Something out of the character's expertise gets a difficulty modifier that's more challenging.  Something in his purview (perhaps horses or swordsmanship, or armor) gets a reduced difficulty.  Maneuver tables are good for stuff like this, since it lets you know how accurate the appraisal is.  If the result is an 80, the character is within +/- 20%. 

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

In general you'll appraise with the skill that "use" or "craft" the tool.

If you are skilled swordsman, sure you'll be able to appraise a sword.
If you are an expert rider, you'll know a little about horses.

You'd know about the quality, not the price, which is influenced by quality, sure, but also scarcity and the general market. To be fairly good in appraisal, you'd foremost need to know about the usual market prices, and only a slight knowledge of how to determinate an item's quality. For instance, in a medieval setting, one wouldn't expect most nobles to know the value of anything, no matter their expertise on the quality of some items.

In the end, a mix of Trading and the appropriate Lore is probably the way to go, though Trading should be good enough: a good merchant is able to determine the value of anything, approximating its quality through experience. In fact, Trading certainly encompasses a limited ability to evaluate the quality of items, because it plays a role in order to sell, buy or generally trade them.

In other words, someone who spends his life taking care of horses may not know anything about their prices because he's not the one paying for them or the material used to take care of them. OTOH, someone who spends his life selling horses knows about how to estimate their quality because how much he can expect for them depends on it.

[thrud]

Maybe Trading Lore would work?
I think the usual description is "you know where to sell the goods for a profit and where to buy cheap". It wouldn't be much of a stretch to include "you know the value the goods".

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

To determine the value of an item, I would use a Very Hard Trading skill roll.

Then maybe reduce the difficulty one step, if the character has an appropriate Region Lore type of skill for the area, and then reduce it one more step, if the character an appropriate skill/lore that deals with what is trying to be appraised.

The thing to remember is that very little is ever worth the same amount in different locations. For example -- Bows in a woodland are are going to be cheaper than they are in a plains or desert location all because it is easier to make them in the woodland area, and thus they are more plentiful.

The whole purpose of a trader is to determine what he can purchase cheaply in one location to sell at a profit in another. This accounts for the region lores.

The trader also has to account for the quality of the item, to determine its value in comparison to an average specimen of the item. Something of higher quality will be worth more, something of a lesser quality will be worth less.

[giulio.trimarco]

As I see it a person that train horses will know (at least a little) about the prices or how much os worth his work.

Appraising is about evalueating quality and prices.
An adventurer fighter (game semplification aside) will know prices and overall availability of the tools of his trade.
Even if he will use the same sword (the game semplification...) for three years of adventuring.

I don't expect a thief not knowing how much a lockpick set will cost or how good it is.

In opposition a lockpick crafter will know the prices and the qualities of his work but, maybe, isn't a good quality appraisal as the skilled thief.

Trading is to barter on prices (at least as I will use it), but to appraise quality (especially for specific tools) a roll on the "using" skill is more appropriate.

Imho.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Maybe Trading Lore would work?
I think the usual description is "you know where to sell the goods for a profit and where to buy cheap". It wouldn't be much of a stretch to include "you know the value the goods".

I think Trading Lore is about the theoretical part, not the actual part. That'd make you a good economist, but not a good trader.

As I see it a person that train horses will know (at least a little) about the prices or how much os worth his work.

Only if he's also in charge of the logistical part, which is often not the case. For instance, the horse groom of an inn doesn't have ever to buy a horse. How would he know the cost? It's like asking a computer engineer to know the cost of his computer parts, something he wouldn't because he's just not the one buying them. Or an building worker knowing the price of what he builds, something he wouldn't because he's just not the one selling them, nor the one buying the materials.

An adventurer fighter (game semplification aside) will know prices and overall availability of the tools of his trade.

Only if he buys it himself, which is totally independent from his actual expertise in swordsmanship. For instance, you'd expect a knight of noble birth not to have any idea of his sword's price, because chances are that he doesn't buy any himself, but merely asks his people to take care of the payment after he had chosen a sword he likes.

I don't expect a thief not knowing how much a lockpick set will cost or how good it is.

Once again, only if he buys his himself. If he's a member of a guild and the guild provides him his tools, why would he know the prices?

Trading is to barter on prices (at least as I will use it), but to appraise quality (especially for specific tools) a roll on the "using" skill is more appropriate.

Ah, but to efficiently barter on prices, you need to be able to appraise quality.

[thrud]

I like to keep things simple and I wouldn't mind using trading. It's close enough for me.
Maybe one could get a +25 bonus to the trading roll if the pc makes a successful trading lore roll?
And reducing difficulties like Rasyr said.

Yeah, that could work. 

[giulio.trimarco]

As I see it a person that train horses will know (at least a little) about the prices or how much os worth his work.

Only if he's also in charge of the logistical part, which is often not the case. For instance, the horse groom of an inn doesn't have ever to buy a horse. How would he know the cost? It's like asking a computer engineer to know the cost of his computer parts, something he wouldn't because he's just not the one buying them. Or an building worker knowing the price of what he builds, something he wouldn't because he's just not the one selling them, nor the one buying the materials.

An adventurer fighter (game semplification aside) will know prices and overall availability of the tools of his trade.

Only if he buys it himself, which is totally independent from his actual expertise in swordsmanship. For instance, you'd expect a knight of noble birth not to have any idea of his sword's price, because chances are that he doesn't buy any himself, but merely asks his people to take care of the payment after he had chosen a sword he likes.

I don't expect a thief not knowing how much a lockpick set will cost or how good it is.

Once again, only if he buys his himself. If he's a member of a guild and the guild provides him his tools, why would he know the prices?

Trading is to barter on prices (at least as I will use it), but to appraise quality (especially for specific tools) a roll on the "using" skill is more appropriate.

Ah, but to efficiently barter on prices, you need to be able to appraise quality.

This, to me, seems more like a production chain than a real-world person.

[rdanhenry]

An adventurer fighter (game semplification aside) will know prices and overall availability of the tools of his trade.

Only if he buys it himself, which is totally independent from his actual expertise in swordsmanship. For instance, you'd expect a knight of noble birth not to have any idea of his sword's price, because chances are that he doesn't buy any himself, but merely asks his people to take care of the payment after he had chosen a sword he likes.

Or he inherited his father's sword. Or received it as a gift from his liege lord. Or claimed it as a prize of war. Many who fought with a sword would not have purchased one at all, even through a servant.

[markc]

 In RMSS I use either the skill to wield the weapon with a higher difficulty level or a skill like trading with a difficulty level that I as GM best guess based on a number of factors.  I think that something like this can be done in RMC but again IMO it will all hinge on the GM and his judgment and will be different for every GM.

MDC

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

This, to me, seems more like a production chain than a real-world person.

Errrrr, not at all, it's how most of the world used to work and still works. In a production chain, each worker does the same minimal action (like pushing the same button every single time) but in any structure (such as a medieval guild, or a medieval monastery, or an army), any member has a role. If in a mere inn, a boy is supposed to take care of the horses, he takes care of the horses, and has nothing to do that makes him know about their market prices.

Or he inherited his father's sword. Or received it as a gift from his liege lord. Or claimed it as a prize of war. Many who fought with a sword would not have purchased one at all, even through a servant.

Sure, but my example in the case the knight buys a sword since my point was that, even in such a case, he wouldn't know about the price of the sword. Obviously, in the case he didn't purchase it, he doesn't have any idea about its market value.

Now that I think about it, another example:  giulio.trimarco, do you think any soldier, no matter how expert he is in his field, has any idea about the cost of his gun, less his whole equipment? I doubt most do.

[giulio.trimarco]

delete post

[Dartavian]

Trading Skill Clarification/Errata:

Character Law page 94 Trading description list the primary stats as PR/EM on page 95 07-10 Secondary Skill Development Cost Table the primary stats for Trading are listed as RE/EM; Each is conceivable, which set of stats is correct RE/EM or PR/EM?

Thanks,

Dartavian