Topic: Lore skills and Lore Scrolls, Books & Tomes

[craggles]

I have a quick question on Lores.

The School of Hard Knocks p17 (if I'm not mistaken) talks of using the Lore skill ranks to convert them to 'Knowledge Level's on the various Lore subjects. The Knowledge Level is directly linked to the Obscurity level of a subject.

If it's about Creatures, it relates to their 'Rarity Level' in the Creatures & Monsters book.
If it's herbs/poisons, it relates to their rarity level in the Gamesmaster book.

As long as the item/creature/information etc is within your Knowledge level you can do an immediate Static Maneuver to see if you recall the info. If it's not, you can go away and with the proper research, do the maneuver again.

Lore Scrolls, Books and Tomes all give bonuses to certain Lore skills (which several TPs dish out at the start of play) - and this increases your Lore Skill Bonuses but not your Knowledge level as that's determined by the actual ranks you have.

If the subject is within your knowledge level, it's a good boost for your static maneuver - but if it's not, then the 'maneuver will require research'.

I assume the SoHK's need for 'research' would include any Lore books you have on your person/horse but on most things, you need to know that info immediately ie.
what is that creature immune to or what are it's weaknesses?
what spell is the enemy casting right now?
what type of lock is that?
what will this stranger from another culture be offended at?

I'm tempted to use any bonus Lore items towards the knowledge level for the purpose of making an immediate Lore static maneuver on subjects.

How do others deal with the Lore Skills?
Do you use the SoHKs method for Lores and Knowledge Levels?
Have I not understood the SoHK's definition correctly? (which wouldn't be the first time!) 

Thanks for your thoughts.

[RandalThor]

I haven't done it myself as i haven't played RM in a long time, but you could divide the bonus by 5 to get the bonus number of ranks the tome/scroll/book gives.

[markc]

 I do not use the Lore Rule from SoHK. Also remember that the SoHK came after the RMSS/FRP book by a few years, maybe 4-10. So you may have to adjust some of the info from RMSS/FRP to fit the lore rule if you use it.

MDC

[craggles]

So no-one uses that rule from the SoHK at all? 

I think I'll go with the Lore books adding to the skill ranks in the meantime then.
RandalThor - I was going to divide the bonus by 3 but now that you've suggested it, 5 is a nicer round number (and it'll not make it difficult instead of a forgon conclusion).

hmmm - perhaps having a Lore book count towards the ranks (which dictates the Knowledge Level) and count towards the skill bonus for the static roll as well would be overly generous. I think I'll have such Lore items count ONLY towards the ranks/Knowledge Level and NOT towards the static roll at all. Life isn't meant to be too easy after all! 

[markc]

 I do not know if you can say that since two of us do not use the rules that everyone dos not.

 I can see it being quite a lot of work to detail every book and say just how it can be used in aiding a lore skill roll. I can see the advantage but most of my games it is hard to carry around books and most players are trying to figure out ways to not carry books or to keep the books to a min.
 If I was running a game where my PC's could have a lot of info at thier disposal, like in a SM:P game I would most probably have to create some rules for it. Now that I think about it IMO a SM:P game is almost the opposite than a fantasy game as you have computers and ton's of info at your fingertips and not just scraps.

MDC

[craggles]

I'm surprised at the little amount of items needed to start the character's having an encumberance penalty! As well as any books they're carrying, some of the party need to keep their money on their horses as it's too heavy!

...I'm just waiting for the opportune time for the horses to bolt.

When I was referring to no-one using those rules, I wasn't referring to the fact that the people who replied didn't follow the rules - I was referring to the fact that anyone who does follow the rules hasn't replied. (and I thought that being as it's the weekend, there'd be more people free to reply). 

[markc]

 Yes encumbrance is a problem .... if you keep track of it. Some GM's do and some do not.

 I think the rule you are talking about is sort of hidden in the book. I could be wrong as it has been quite a while since I have looked at the book. Also I think one of the problems that arises is that GM's do not want to change how things work mid-game, so it sort of languishes in the background until brought up by someone. I can speak of this as I played in a RM2 game in which they have been playing since the mid 80's. I had a problem with PC creation as they have 3 different values for the Ranger all from different books. This lead to some other discoveries of some basic changes from edition to edition, house rule to house rule or printing to printing.

 I think it would be a good thing to have a basic range of info that a book would provide a bonus for. But as you have said in the basic RMSS book or RMFRP they have TP's that give basic items bonuses for generic lore tasks. I bet if you wrote something up that was different from SoHK and submitted it to The Guild Companion they would include it in thier web-zine.

MDC

[rdanhenry]

Something very like this rule was in one of the RM2 Companions, although I don't recall offhand which one. It makes a great deal of sense to me. Stat bonuses, for instance, can help you recall what you know quickly and correlate information, but it can't produce knowledge out of thin air. You still have to learn the material (spend DPs and develop ranks in the Lore).

As for books, unless they are powerful magic, they are not going to substitute for a research library, not even the relatively small ones of ancient or medieval times. I might allow certain books to provide the equivalent of extra ranks in a specific subset of a Lore. Not to Dragon Lore, but perhaps to Dragon Lore: Famous Dragons of the Icefang Mountains. General references would provide a bonus to skill, as per the standard rules, but they would be written in ways that are concise to the point of obscurity if you don't already have adequate knowledge. This is true even of some modern references and if you are doing the pseudo-medieval world, even more obscurity is to be expected, both from less organized writing styles and deliberate obfuscation.

[craggles]

Hi Rdanhenry,

I've found it in the RC II on page 97 (I used to play RM2 many years ago so I have a lot of the RM2 books but had a huge break). It equates the ranks bought in that Lore to be the Knowledge level on a 1 to 1 ratio. What it does that's interesting is it varies the cost of DPs needed based on the reference available (which I already do, sort of, by making the more obscure Lores 'Restricted').

The SoHK book has a higher 'rank to knowledge level' ratio (and you need 21 ranks to get to be a Knowledge Level of 9 as opposed to RM II's 9 ranks to be the same Knowledge Level) but the cost of ranks is based on the profession only, but like I said, I 'Restrict' some.

The bit I'm stuck on is the '+10 to certain Lore' book that are available in some TPs. If using the Knowledge Level rule from the SoHK, these bonus Lore items become redundant unless applied to the Knowledge Level directly.

All other bonus items effect the particular skills directly like +10 Stalking boots, +5 Hiding cloak, +10OB Sword, +5DB Armour but if the Lore Skills use the Knowledge Level rule, the +10 Herb Lore book isn't on the same playing field as the other bonus items anymore.

Obviously the SoHK was produced some time after the TPs in question were originally conceived and was made pre the current ICE but I wanted to make sure that there wasn't an official ruling on the subject before I went and made a house rule for it - I want to stick with the core rules as much as possible where I can.

...although I am liking some of the modifiers to the DPs that the RM II brought up which actually makes it cheaper in certain circumstances (using the range of 'Everyman', 'Normal' and 'Restricted' based on access to Libraries). I'd already restricted some but hadn't considered 'Everyman'. 

Thanks for your help all, I appreciate it. 

[Skarsgard]

Whilst the ranks determine whether or not you can know about something, you still need to roll the skill successfully to know the peice of information (how difficult it is will come down to the GM).

By the same token a person with insufficient ranks, doesn't get a roll.

[Temujin]

We use the rank requirement for lore checks, and I have to say, I love it.  As for Lore books, we allow the bonus to apply to the maneuver checks, as well as give the equivalent of 2 ranks per +5.