Author Topic: Maxed out skills  (Read 4818 times)

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Offline providence13

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Maxed out skills
« on: May 06, 2009, 02:29:59 PM »
What do you do when skills become ridiculously high? (other than kill them off)
How do GM's limit this? (other than kill them off)

You really don't see return on OB bonuses, or that monks' AD is so high they will never be hit with a weapon/ the mage can Spell Master castings into almost any spell.

I considered a cross feed of skills that might be related. "Your Katana OB is the best in the land; there is no one to challenge you. Any more ranks you dump in that are going into... tea ceromony!"

Cooking for halflings comes to mind.... eventually, they would be so good/unchallenged that the only time they failed would be lethal, and this isn't realistic. I would make them put ranks into Chemistry (for example) to learn anything else. You can't pick up Larouse Gastronimique without getting a bit of History and Anthropology.

Maybe after a while (rank 20), players/GM could choose a cross-feeding skill. Once that reaches a certain rank (10), then the 20 could be raised.

You can't expect to have over 15 ranks in Riding and 3 or less in Animal Handling.
(My apologies to any professional jockeys on this board.)

This would apply even more as Language relationships. But that sounds like a lot of work!
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Offline bottg

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2009, 02:55:32 PM »
We always counted ranks as being worth 1/2 each after 40, and stopped level bonuses after 20 (although +3's did become +1).  So a character past 20th needs to buy 2 ranks to get +1 in the skill.  Most characters here start buying other skills anyway.

Offline providence13

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2009, 03:00:07 PM »
I understand what you mean. Those diminishing returns do take care of it... but it can still happen.
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Offline markc

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2009, 03:35:53 PM »
 IMO just because a PC has a few or many skills maxed out does not mean they are impervious to harm. They still can be poisoned, killed in there sleep, fall off a cliff, get eaten by a dragon, etc. At high level PC's can often think they are immune to the little stuff that low level unknowns do not have to deal with.

 If you are asking just from statistic stand point then yes they will be the best in something or many somethings, but they always could roll that 01-05 and fumble and have bad things happen to them.

 If you are asking from a story point of view, then it can become difficult to provide challenges to them. Maybe you have a war that they take part in and they suffer from lack of food, water, sleep, etc that finally ends there life.

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giulio.trimarco

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2009, 04:29:45 PM »
Big issue.

I've always thought that maxed out skill are an RPGs problem.

Here my to cents:

1) Prevent (even creating some house rules) that the PCs can build a super-skill. In short, re-balance the system to your needs. If you foretell that your PCs will play till level 100th, for example, remove any bonuses, like level bonuses for RMC.

2) Create situations in which their super-skills are useless or hampered. For combat, for example, use close-quarter where two-handed weapons are unusable and all other weapons are -100, peculiar ambushes, multiple opponents and don't be shy of applying all the rules concerning penalties.

3) Don't damage PCs, but their equipment. Maneuver in such a way to destroy the favorite tool (weapon or whatever) of the PC. This will leave them in disadvantage.

4) Inform yourself on how skill really works (in the real world) and throw real difficulties to your player. Ingredients, complications, needed equipment. In case something is missing disallow the skill roll and don't give the usual -70 for lack of equipment. No one can scale a brick wall... without rope and hook.

5) Sometimes all you can do is stop playing with that PCs and start over with point 1...

Good luck!

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2009, 12:23:23 AM »
What do you do when skills become ridiculously high? (other than kill them off)
How do GM's limit this? (other than kill them off)
We do nothing. In all my RPG life this has never been an issue, so why should I limit it? Did you really have a problem with a high skill of a PC in RM once or is this only a theoretical problem? In the former case I'd suggest you explain what happened and in the latter case I'd suggest trust those who tell you than in RM this is not an issue e.g. due to diminishing returns.

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2009, 12:26:01 AM »
It's an issue if he feel it an issue.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 12:38:43 AM »
In all my RPG life this has never been an issue, so why should I limit it?

I am in the same boat here. I relish the day I get to play a 100th level RM character! For me it would be a huge change of pace.

But, the diminishing returns and the fact that in RM you can be killed by the peasant with a pitchfork help alleviate the feeling of invulnerability. Other than that, the fact that RMSS/FRP has so many skills I find it unlikely that they would have all - or very many - at super high skill ranks.

Each profession would likely have those that really matter to them at high ranks, and those that would be classified as "secondary" pretty-high as well. But there would still be numerous others that they would be seriously lacking in.

Also, if you make sure that each character has to use unconventional skills (at least, unconventional to that character) to get things done occasionally (such as the Barbarian having to use seduction, or the Thief needing to win at chess) you will make them spread out their DPs and skill ranks.

I truly believe that too many of us (me included) forget that skills aren't just for "adventuring" but are needed in dealing with regular civilization. Make them spend points on social skills, knowledge skills, and the like by having real in-game consequences for failure.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 02:54:37 AM »
It's an issue if he feel it an issue.
If he actually experienced problems, and not only ponders what problems could arise should the PCs grow to higher levels, then I agree that it is an issue at least for him. Otherwise the above statement is nonsense, since he can err as any of us can.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2009, 03:32:59 AM »
If we speak about OB I really don't see the possibility to max out the skill. Bring demons or undead into the mix and the player will soon mind that didn't get more ranks. The OB of some of these are really high.

Looking at regular skills there is of course a point when the character can handle the absurd difficulty reasonably well and no real benefit of more development, but is this really a problem?



/Pa Staav

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2009, 05:04:24 AM »
It's an issue if he feel it an issue.
If he actually experienced problems, and not only ponders what problems could arise should the PCs grow to higher levels, then I agree that it is an issue at least for him. Otherwise the above statement is nonsense, since he can err as any of us can.

Ecthelion,
We are discussing a post opened by a player about this "issue".
Real or forseen.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2009, 05:58:54 AM »
What do you do when skills become ridiculously high? (other than kill them off)
How do GM's limit this? (other than kill them off)

How high is "ridiculously" high?
And why should the GM kill the PCs?

What's the problem of an halfling with a huge bonus in Cooking? He's simply the best cook in the world.
What's the problem of a spellcaster that can spellmaster all his spells? He paid a lot of DPs each level to be able to do that, why should the GM limit him?
What's the problem of a monk with a high AD bonus? OB and AD have the same progression, so if he reached a given DB by developing his skills, there are others in the world who have developed their OBs to the same level or more...
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2009, 06:33:20 AM »
I believe that the question is that there is difficulty in GMing a super-character that can accomplish everything without the smallest thrill in the try.

No one question that is correct to allow PC to reach high SB and no one question the RM system (at least as I see it).

Perhaps Providence simply by experience (or by foretell) is questioned on how super skilled PC can be challenged.

IMHO this happen, sooner or later, in most RPGs system.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2009, 07:22:15 AM »
Perhaps Providence simply by experience (or by foretell) is questioned on how super skilled PC can be challenged.

This is why I asked how high is "ridicously" high, to understand what's providence problem and give him a better answer.

I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2009, 11:07:12 AM »
Ecthelion,
We are discussing a post opened by a player about this "issue".
Real or forseen.
In fact Providence asked a question what others do in the case of very high skill bonuses. Whether he really had experienced a problem, i.e. an issue, with it, he did not say. My point was that for RM this would only be a theoretical problem and not really an issue - where you answered it definitely would be an issue since someone thought it could be one. But no, if someone only thinks high skill bonuses could be a problem, this does not suddenly make it a real problem.

The only person in this thread who actually took the position that high bonuses would be a "big issue" is you. Neither Arioch, markc, RandalThor, pastaav nor me ever had a problem with high skill bonuses in RM - and we are all experienced players/GMs who play RM for years. Not even providence13, who created the thread, wrote that he actually experienced problems with high skills. Perhaps he should explain how he came to ask the question, but up to now I think that he just asked because some of his players are maxing skills for their PCs and wanted to know whether this could become a problem in the future.

So sorry, but we are discussing a non-issue here again. It's OK if you disagree, but please stop telling me what the discussion is about! And doing things like hampering PCs in the use of their skills, damaging their equipment and suddenly increasing the difficulty for maneuvers, as you suggested, just because the poor player decided to create a specialty for his character and be really good at something (necessarily by sacrificing other abilities), is something that I would probably never do. But if it is done, then a GM should please only do such things if he/she really had experienced problems before and not just because he is guessing that problems could arise.

Offline Cormac Doyle

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2009, 11:21:41 AM »
The only time I've seen overall bonuses be an issue, it was because of stacking of epic-scale bonuses (ring of haste & +45OB sword & circlet that protects as +40 AT20), etc ...

With skill bonues and level bonuses, the numbers are fine (although I personally prefer RMSS-style profession bonuses rather than level bonuses)

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2009, 11:43:36 AM »
Quote
The only person in this thread who actually took the position that high bonuses would be a "big issue" is you.

Yeah  ;D

So, it's a matter of numbers?

In addition I've said that this is an issue in "RPGs system", not RM.
My advices were general.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 11:50:07 AM by giulio.trimarco »

Offline Winterknight

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2009, 11:57:04 AM »
For the first few levels, players never seem to have enough DP's, as they are trying to max out their basic survival skills - whatever those may be for your campaign.  For my campaigns, they tend to be hit points, spells/weapons, armor, perception, S&H and a smattering of utility skills.  As the returns begin to diminish, players tend to drift over to skills they have found would have been useful, had they been able to afford them earlier in their careers.  

Instead of double developing their weapons, they might still keep active with a single rank in their primary weapons, but spend points to diversify into other weapon types, or social skills, or crafting skills, or medical skills.  

Within a few levels, my players typically have a good deal of relative wealth.  By that, I mean that they won't be unable to afford a room, or book passage, or pay for medical treatment.  But, they've usually suffered quite a bit to get what they have, and it's become clear to them that MY world does not have a lot of excess coin laying around for adventurers to scoop up.  The hoarding mindset begins to creep into them, and they start learning skills that will help them KEEP their wealth, now that they've gotten a taste for it.  Knowledge of weaponry, horses, or gear quality will help them pay fair prices.  Cooking makes for a more pleasant camping experience, and I'll even give bonuses to HP recovery for a particularly good meal or well set-up campsite after an encounter.  

For me, it really hasn't been an issue.

And in those cases where players really DO have over the top skill bonuses (like for combat), I tend to give them personal nemeses.  They might be able to plow their way through "normal" foes, but if they are that superior, they certainly should attract the attention of some equally stalwart nasty.

As Glenn Ford discovered, there's little satisfaction in knowing you're The Fastest Gun Alive, if you can't prove it.  
Ex post facto.

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2009, 01:20:39 PM »
So, it's a matter of numbers?
No, it was just meant to make you think about whether we really have an issue as perceived by many or whether you might be the only one who perceives high skill rank number as a problem.

Offline markc

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Re: Maxed out skills
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2009, 03:57:15 PM »
If provdenice13 ; was asking if IMO a RM PC should be retired when they max out a single skill or multiple skills in RMSS/FRP then my answer is no. IMO the story should take preference to mechanics.

MDC
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Role Play not Roll Play.
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