Topic: Fear Spells, Vibrations and RRs

[craggles]

The first question of the Month from me (I'm surprised I've made it till the 2nd before asking)

It's just a couple of quick ones though...

Fear spells
Do you use the Character's resistance to the spell's realm or the Character's resistance to Fear?

Vibrations
"...if it is an object held by a being, the being must make an RR or fumble it"
As this is a physical effect on an object and not a spell directed to the person holding the object, what do you roll an RR against? The Character's resistance to the spell's realm against the caster's level or something else?
I was perhaps thinking that if it was a weapon being shaken, perhaps it needs to roll an RR with his OB as a bonus - or the amount of ranks in that weapon as the 'character's level' for the sake of an RR.

Thanks.

[Arioch]

Both a RR with character's bonus against realm of the spell, as they're both magical effects (Fear bonus is used against "natural" fear, caused by some creatures special abilities)

[craggles]

and even the vibrations spell? - because the target of the spell is the weapon and not the character holding the weapon.

It seems weird that a character's resistance to a realm of magic effects how well he can hold something.

If it was a confuse spell or a spell to tell him drop his weapon I'd understand the RR vs Realm of Magic - but not an object vibrating in his hand.

[Arioch]

and even the vibrations spell? - because the target of the spell is the weapon and not the character holding the weapon.

Objects makes RR using level and RR bonus of the character holding them, unless they're sentient IIRC.

[craggles]

If that's the case, I'll use that next time - although I'm still not convinced.

In the case of vibrations, I was ruling that the spell was successful on the weapon and it wouldn't get an RR at all (if the spell static was successful first) and the issue I have with it is the fighter then needs to do an RR to see if he can keep ahold of it. It's this RR that I don't think should be based on his resistance to the realm of magic and more on his weapon skill.

I was thinking something similar to how the disarm skill is used and the target needs to make an RR based on the attacker's ranks in disarm vs ranks in the weapon skill.

[markc]

 The problem with not allowing the holder of a weapon to save vs his level comes when you have other cases such as a spell caster wanting to disintegrate a person armor/shield/weapon.
MDC

[craggles]

Ah - so the weapon should get an RR to see if it does in fact vibrate. I'll make sure I do that tomorrow (the PCs are going to be meeting their very first Essence user so I want everything to go well. Actually, it'll be their first magic using bad guy ever! They've been cutting their teeth on goblins, orcs and trolls)

...but the RR the wielder needs to make, how would that be handled?
The specific spell I'm questioning is 'Vibrations II' - part of the 'Essence Hand' spell list on page 9 of the Essence Spell book. In it's description of the spell it says that 'if the object is being held by someone, they need to make an RR to see if they fumble it' ...which I take it to mean an extra RR AFTER the object has successfully been vibrated.

So first I'll get the weapon to make an RR using the character's level and RR bonus against Essence to see if the weapon does, in fact, start to vibrate. If it does vibrate, the character then needs to make an RR to see if they fumble the weapon (I'm thinking of using it on a character's weapon if you hadn't worked it out yet ). If they do fumble it, I was going to get them to make a roll on the relevant fumble table. BUT, it's this second RR the character needs to make or fumble it that I'm questioning.

Am I reading it correctly - Does it require a second RR or do we need to use just the first RR?

This wouldn't be the first time I got something wrong though.

[Cormac Doyle]

If vibrations is cast upon a sword sitting on a normal surface, it does NOT get an RR - it simply starts to vibrate.

If a sword is being held by a person, then the sword makes an RR at the level of the weilder (becuase it is actually the weilder's aura that triggers the RR).

[markc]

If vibrations is cast upon a sword sitting on a normal surface, it does NOT get an RR - it simply starts to vibrate.

If a sword is being held by a person, then the sword makes an RR at the level of the weilder (becuase it is actually the weilder's aura that triggers the RR).

I think Cormac Doyle said it better than me.

 I also as a house rule have created levels for different types of metals and materials. If the spell is destructive to the object then it also get a save vs its level. If the object it held by a person then the spell would have to bypass the persons RR as well as my material level RR. But that is a house rule so PC's special magic items do not get broken by evil spell casters.

MDC

[craggles]

Vibrations I ? Causes an object of up to 1 pound mass to vibrate rapidly; if fragile it may break (roll a RR). If it is an object held by a being the being must make a RR or fumble it (each round).

So there is no second RR to see if the wielder fumbles it - it's all base on the first RR which determines whether it vibrates in the first place?   

...because I'm still feeling that the description is implying 2 RRs; The first RR to see if the sword vibrates for the duration of the spell (which would get an RR initially based on the character's level) and if the RR fails, then the sword is vibrating for the duration. Then there's a second RR which is made each round (according to the spell description) to see if the wielder fumbles the sword that round.

At this point, the sword would have already failed the initial RR to see if it started to vibrate (based on the wielder's level) and as with all spells of a set duration, this RR is rolled once, and if failed, the sword would vibrate for the entire duration of the spell.

But now that the sword IS vibrating for the duration (and there's no further RRs to see if it carries on vibrating - just like ALL spells with set duration's), the RR that the wielder needs to make now is whether the constant vibrations of his sword would make him fumble it each round. A successful RR means he didn't fumble it that round despite the vibrations and a failed RR means he did fumble it that round because of the vibrations. Whichever the result of this second 'fumble/no fumble' RR, the sword is still vibrating for the duration if the initial RR (to see it it does start vibrating) failed.

It's the 'fumble/no fumble' RR that needs to be made every round that I think needs to be based more on the wielder's OB (or ranks in OB to act as the level) for the RR instead of his magic resistance - because his magic resistance would have already failed when the spell was cast and the spell caused the sword to vibrate for the duration. With the sword vibrating, it's no-longer a magic resistance the wielder needs to make as a pass wouldn't mean the vibrating stopped - it just means that the wielder managed to successfully master the grip of his sword and managed not to fumble it.

In order to successfully master his grip on his sword (if it were constantly vibrating), I don't think it should be based on his resistance to Magic because we're not dealing with magic anymore, this is a physical effect now (just like a magically created 'wall' spell actually creates a physical 'wall'; a character passing an RR doesn't mean they can walk through the wall because they have a good resistance to magic. No amount of RRs is going to dispel that wall - it is now a physical surface); I think the second RR should be based on one (or more) of the following - his skill in the weapon as a bonus to the RR, using the amount of ranks in his weapon to use as the 'target's' level or using his Agility stat as a bonus to the RR as this is what would determine whether someone keeps ahold of something if it was constantly vibrating.
(I'm starting the favour the skill ranks in the sword as the target's level (as is used in disarming weapon attempts) or using the average of the Character's level and his ranks in the weapon as the target's level and using the Ag bonus as the bonus to the RR ...and I may make it a house rule after I try it out today).

I know I would be upset if I was a character who was a master of my weapon and had an amazing Ag bonus but had a bad resistance to Essence which meant that I wasn't not able to hold onto my vibrating sword.
Causing the sword to vibrate in the first place based on the character's level and resistance to Essence is not a problem for me - it's the ability to keep ahold of the weapon once this physical effect of vibrating is manifested on the sword that I don't think should have anything to do with a character's resistance to Essence.

I may just be making it overly complicated.

...unless there's an 'official' ruling on the subject where it IS the character's magical resistance that's determining whether it's fumbled each round?
(get ready to use the red colour because I am listening)

[Arioch]

Vibrations I ? Causes an object of up to 1 pound mass to vibrate rapidly; if fragile it may break (roll a RR). If it is an object held by a being the being must make a RR or fumble it (each round).

So there is no second RR to see if the wielder fumbles it - it's all base on the first RR which determines whether it vibrates in the first place?  

Yes, the description of the spell is pretty straightforward:
- if the item is not held by anyone it must make a RR or break
- if the item is held by someone, that character must make a RR against Essence each round or fumble it.

[craggles]

(I'm still not convinced on the clarity of the description) - but I'll use it as an RR vs Essence each round when they come up against the spell caster later today.

I'm assuming that the RRs to fumble it continue throughout the duration of the spell - even if it's all ready been fumbled - or fumbled and dropped and then picked up?

As it's cast on the object being held, dropping it and using a different one means the new one is not effected by the vibration spell.

Thanks for clarifying (and listening to my ramblings)

[Arioch]

I'm assuming that the RRs to fumble it continue throughout the duration of the spell - even if it's all ready been fumbled - or fumbled and dropped and then picked up?

Yes, duration is 1 rnd/lvl and the item will vibrate for all duration, so if it's dropped it'll continue to vibrate and must make a RR or break (since is no longer held by anyone).

As it's cast on the object being held, dropping it and using a different one means the new one is not effected by the vibration spell.

Right!

For example:
Rnd 1: Vibration is cast on a sword held by a PC. PC pass his RR, nothing happens
Rnd 2: PC fails his RR, fumble weapon and drop the sword
Rnd 3: Sword on ground, makes a RR and pass it, it doesn't break.

Now the PC may pick up the sword (and make RRs each round to avoid fumble till duration's end) or take another weapon. Weapon on the ground continues to vibrate but does NOT need to make others RRs, as the description of the spell says: "if fragile it may break (roll a RR)".

[craggles]

would you consider a sword to be something 'fragile'?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Let's start by posting the spell description
[errata=Spell Description]
Vibrations I - Causes an object of up to 1 pound mass to vibrate rapidly; if fragile it may break (roll a RR). If it is an object held by a being the being must make a RR or fumble it (each round)
[/errata]

I agree this spell is confusing (these spells (Vibrations) have caused issues before). Here are a couple of points to consider....

1) Objects, not on or held by a person, normally do not get RRs versus spells unless specified, or unless there is something special about the object.

2) When an object that is being held or worn is the target of a spell, that object will normally get a RR because it is within the person's aura, and it is the interaction of the magic with that aura that triggers a RR.

3) This spell contains 2 conditionals....

• Item is Fragile - This means "easily breakable". The test to apply here to determine if an object is fragile or not is - will it break if dropped to the floor? -- if the answer is yes, or very possibly, then consider it to be fragile (i.e. a sword is NOT fragile for the purpose of this spell, a potion vial or a glass/crystal goblet would be fragile).
• Item is Held - If the item is held, then that triggers the possibility of fumbling the item each round, and the spell description calls for a RR to see if the item is fumbled each round.

How to Resolve
My suggestion is as follows...

If the item to be targeted is worn or held by a person, then that person makes an realm-based RR against the spell. If he succeeds, then the item does not vibrate, if he fails, then it does.

If the person failed the RR, then there is a chance that he fumbles the item each round. This is represented by a Strength-based RR each round (the vibration is a physical effect, so IMO the RR should be physically oriented as well), to see if he can hold/control the item well enough to not drop it, and perhaps to even use it. Of course, the character could negate the need for the RR by simply dropping the item and using something else.

Be very cautious and aware of the weights of items as the spells of this name are very limited by the amount of weight that they can effect.

Note: I would NOT use a character's OB as his RR Mod - that is too powerful a bonus and it would essentially mean that the character never fumbled because of this spell. Knowing HOW TO effectively use a weapon does NOT equate to  being able to keep hold on it as it vibrates (NOT a normal condition).

[craggles]

Thanks Tim

I thought there had to be some form of physical effect to overcome once the weapon started vibrating - but St bonus is the way to go then as opposed Ag?

We're half way through the encounter (and a break to put the diner on) and your reply has come just in time as one of the caster's has started the preparation for it.

If an invisible person attacks or has a jarring blow, he becomes visible. I'm sure I've read somewhere that casting a spell also makes you visible but it doesn't mention it in the back of the spell books and I can't remember where I read it from. But if it does make you visible, would it make you visible on the round you cast it or the start of the preparation?

...and I'm going to be using Vibrations II for the 5lb weight. 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Personally, I consider any spell casting (not prep) to be "violent" enough to get rid of invisibility.

Strength vs Agility -- I said strength because you are trying to hold on to a wiggling item. If you were trying to juggle the item, then I would say Agility...

[markc]

 Just to make things more confusing a GM might rule that the vibrations will subtract some # from the persons OB, as trying to hold on to a object that is moving in strange ways prevents you from using your max OB or fraction of OB to attack.

MDC

[rdanhenry]

On the other hand, you could argue that you now have a vibroblade sword and should do an additional vibration critical (available in the RM2 Elemental Companion).

[yammahoper]

On the other hand, you could argue that you now have a vibroblade sword and should do an additional vibration critical (available in the RM2 Elemental Companion).

This should be the next rewrite of the vibration spell.  RR failure indicate object vibrates. If cast on a weapon an XX mod for XX time (or -XX to break check rolls for objects).  If cast on a weapon, RR success indicates weapons vibrate and deliver A unbalance crits.