Topic: Removing Profession Bonus

[bottg]

One effect of level bonuses is in untrained skills.  A lvl 20 fighter with +20 stat bonus will have a minimum bonus of 55 with all weapons, whether trained or not (3x20 + 20 -25).  This means that buying one rank in a new weapon means 85 OB straight away. 

Without level bonuses, a level 20 fighter is as good with a new weapon as a mage is (allowing for different stat bonuses).  Granted the fighter can learn for less DP's but i like the fact that
a high level warrior becomes at least OK with just about any weapon.

[giulio.trimarco]

Without level bonuses, a level 20 fighter is as good with a new weapon as a mage is (allowing for different stat bonuses). Granted the fighter can learn for less DP's but i like the fact that a high level warrior becomes at least OK with just about any weapon.

I like that the difference between a mage and a warrior are the DPs needed (effort) and the time spent on training.

[bottg]

Without level bonuses, a level 20 fighter is as good with a new weapon as a mage is (allowing for different stat bonuses). Granted the fighter can learn for less DP's but i like the fact that a high level warrior becomes at least OK with just about any weapon.

I like that the difference between a mage and a warrior are the DPs needed (effort) and the time spent on training.

Each to his own! 

My feeling is that if a very experienced warrior picks up a new weapon, he should be better at hitting something with it than a mage.  But that is just me.

[giulio.trimarco]

We are going greatly off-topic but here my real-life experience:

I use a war-hammer and a norman sword. I don ~50 kg of armour and a shield on the back.

Now I'm a medium skilled fighter with the norman sword and hammer.
I'm also a boxer.

Now, when I use a new weapon (sometimes I need to use a spear) I'm at an advantage against a friend of mine that normally use a bow and dagger. He, also, isn't the fittiest in the world.

When we take up a spear I'm on the winning side. Why?
Physical training (for the most part).

Physical training is the single most important activity that a warrior needs.
But I don't acquire physical capabilities "by magic" (levelling up), but by hard, continuous training (DP).
I train, I better myself. I don't train, I'm a sitting duck.

To conclude, different weapons differ greatly. Using a short sword isn't the some as using a norman sword or a gladius.
In honesty if I could compute my real-life OB with the warhammer around 100 (for semplicity, I'm not that skilled) my OB with a danese axe will be 30.

EDIT:
All the above don't take into account that RM, with its DP costs, allow a warrior to rise in level without doing combats.
Work, travelling, new experiences, etc. can allow a fighter to go up a level and gain DP.
So I don't see a strong tie between level bonuses and profession.

[Bletor]

You can remove the lvl bonuses as you wish but for a game balance prupose and for a more marked differentiation between professions I suggest to try this methods:
- give more Dp x lvl
- use fixed bonus (RMFRP like)
- use an intresting variant from EA 11 that give a different progression for each skill with different lvl bonus, so a fighter will have a greater progression in the arms's skills than a mage but without lvl bonuses (I think also in the EA 6 there is a issue about this)

sorry for my poor english
Bletor

[Arioch]

But I don't acquire physical capabilities "by magic" (levelling up), but by hard, continuous training (DP).

So, since you gain DPs each time you level up, you gain the opportunity to train yourself by magic?

[giulio.trimarco]

Arioch,

 

Bletor,
interesting suggestion. Unfortunately I haven't EA 11.

[Arioch]

Arioch,

 

What I'm trying to tell you is that your assumption DPs = training and Level bonuses= magical boost doesn't make sense.
First, beacuse in RMC both DPs and level bonuses come from levelling up, so if DPs are a reflection of somebody's training, level bonuses are the same.
Secondly, because you're trying to apply your real-life experience to an skill advancement system which has nothing to do with real life.

[giulio.trimarco]

Imho, no.

Both come from levelling up, both for different reasons.

DP are a generic indication of what you have learned in that level. The system allow you the decide AFTER you have actually learned where to spend your DP (for semplicity, I believe).
Since you can level up with different activities and not only combat, it's reasonably realistic.
If I level up from hard working, new experiences, etc., I will spend my DP were I feel appropriate.

Level bonuses are rigid. You MUST learn how to fight (or whatever) since you are given that small boost. Whatever the reason of your levelling. Only because your mind-set is that of a warrior.
Now I agree that 99% of the PC will do what their profession are focused on, but that is already refleced in reduced DP.

As I said this level bonus is present, perhaps, for historical reasons.

[Ecthelion]

As I said this level bonus is present, perhaps, for historical reasons.

Perhaps, though the fact that also the HARP system, which is much younger than RM, incorporates something similar to level bonuses indicates otherwise.

Also I think that especially fixed profession bonuses help in pronouncing the differences between professions at early levels in addition to the different DP costs. E.g. if a Fighter, with a cost of 1/5, and a Thief, with a cost of 2/7, decide to max their primary weapon skill for the first few levels, then - without level bonus or professional bonus - their OB would be quite the same. But many RM users probably would expect that the Fighter would have an edge over the Thief in combat. Level bonuses (at least from lvl. 5 or so onwards) and professional bonuses make this come true.

Of course if you want only the skill ranks development and the stats to dictate the skill bonus and you don't want a Fighter to be a bit better at fighting just because he is a Fighter - which IMO is an absolutely valid POV -, then it is correct to remove level bonuses or professional bonuses. As Dark Schneider mentioned, you would probably have to modify the creatures' stats from the RM books a bit, but that should not be too difficult.

[giulio.trimarco]

Ecthelion,

I agree on what you have said.
In fact this thread wasn't started as a discussion on if removing Level Bonus from RM, but simply from my mini-campaign 

True is that, personally, in your example the thief will be equally skilled as the fighter in one or two weapons.
Simply he will be less skilled in others areas.

All this is a matter of choices from the players.
This is perfectly modelled in RM. Your mind-set will give you a "disposition", not skill.

By the way, if the gamning communty feel necessary the level bonuses, hey, they are here  !

[markc]

Imho, no.

Both come from levelling up, both for different reasons.

DP are a generic indication of what you have learned in that level. The system allow you the decide AFTER you have actually learned where to spend your DP (for semplicity, I believe).
Since you can level up with different activities and not only combat, it's reasonably realistic.
If I level up from hard working, new experiences, etc., I will spend my DP were I feel appropriate.

Level bonuses are rigid. You MUST learn how to fight (or whatever) since you are given that small boost. Whatever the reason of your levelling. Only because your mind-set is that of a warrior.
Now I agree that 99% of the PC will do what their profession are focused on, but that is already refleced in reduced DP.

As I said this level bonus is present, perhaps, for historical reasons.

 IMO no level bonuses represent a PC's ability to relate everything they learn or experience to thier core skills. So a fighter like an eastern monk could watch animals and pick up techniques in swordsmanship etc.

MDC

[Moriarty]

I too have been tinkering with removing level/profession bonus from my own campaign. The reason is that they are, as you say, "more of the same" which is the case with many areas of RM. Sometimes, it is a curse, sometimes a blessing. I like the thought of players having to look at only 1 skill cost table and not 2+ different tables when evaluating a profession's skills (cost, level/prof bonus, E/O/R in RMSS, etc).

My idea is to remove level bonus and then compensate for this by making special skill bonuses more readily available through special abilities (background points). Ideally, players will roll a few special abilities with skill bonuses in certain specialized areas such as melee fighting, subterfuge, or magic, and then use that information to pick a suitable/optimal profession. In this way, the special abilities would sort of become the profession bonuses, but through player's own choice.

A Fighter with 1/5 cost should in the long run have an edge over a thief with 2/7 cost.. this is true. But in a sense the Fighter already has, because the Thief spends 3 DP more per level to gain the same skill level, and can develop less in other areas, including areas that improving fighting ability in other ways than just raw weapon skill does. In this sense, I think it's OK.

[thrud]

In the end it all comes down to personal taste.
I feel RM is balanced and level bonuses serve their purpose.

Why neuter the PC's if you run them at LV20? If you're going to remove the professional bonuses you could pretty much run the campign at LV10 without making much difference?
The only difference will be that the PC's stop buying the skills they did in the beginning and buy other miscellaneous skills.

20 ranks -> 70 bonus
40 ranks -> 85 nonus
A petty 15% difference in OB when going from 10'th to 20'th level?
Why bother with a fighter at all, or any non magic user for that matter?

For magic users there will be a difference of course...

[giulio.trimarco]

Simple thought:

since I like very "mundane" campaign, good equipment (not magical) is an aspect that will differentiate professionals from peasants.

With a lower SB good equipment is essential and will be in more demand from the PC.
Swords, lockpicks, etc., +10 or +5, will be a boost even to 20th level PCs.

In my campaign equipment normally will wear out, broke, lost, etc. This will keep PCs on the move and searching for good artisans or became good crafter themselves.

Also I think that running at 10th level or at 20ty, 30th or 50th will be different.
For a fighter being 10th or 20th will be little difference only in relation to OB. But a fighter isn't only OB. Also gaing a +1 every level, in the long run, can be useful. Or that +15 can be obtained in more weapons to create a deadly short/long distance fighter.
A spell caster will have more spells, as already pointed out.
A thief will have more professional skills.
Etc.

At least I see it this way. Perhaps I'm wrong.

[Dark Schneider]

IMO profession bonus is the predisposition for that profession to learn skills in that category, and ranks are the skill itself.

So, as you say, you don't train by "magic", but it is supposed a fighter is trained physically and magician not, and at the same time, is easier for fighter to learn weapons skills, so it has lower DP cost too.

Give a new weapon (not skilled at all) to fighter and magician, it is rare tha the fighter knows better than the magician how to handle it?, it has more experience in how to strike with a weapon, and although is not trained with it, this is an evidence.

More about, it is realistic, so when a scientist begin with a new knowledge, he doesn't begin with a +5 or +10, as he has knowledges that aids him in that new area (maybe maths, physic, as summary profession experience), so if you give a science book to a scientist and to a policeman, surely the scientist can tell you more about the topic in only a week, with no need to wait for long time until many ranks developed.

Maybe the problem is that you see too high the profession bonuses, the solution can be reduce them, RMSS/RMFRP have a fixed +20 for main categories (like weapons for a fighter), that is really lower than the final +60 in RM2. so take a look at them.

[Green Manalishi]

I am back into playing RM2, and I use the RMSS style of fixed profession bonuses. That could work for you. At higher levels, the skills developed mean more. For OB, I do use the 5,4,3,2,1 progression, which levels out about the same OB wise as using +3 per level OB. I prefer that if someone has 40 ranks in a weapon, they should be pretty good (using the 5,4,3,2,1 means +140 with 40 ranks.) Again, skills developed make the difference

[tbigness]

That will come with Experience in using the system as a GM. Your version of Gritty maybe the players way of thinking the system is too much and not like it.... It also says that fighter, rogues, thieves and such are just as good as the other in their specialized skill areas. In this case you may just want to use the Laymen profession for all as it comes out the same way for skills between the professions.