Topic: Alertness vs Observation vs Sense Awareness

[craggles]

As all the topics of yesterday have disappeared, I'm still confused about the difference between the Alertness skill, the Observation skill and the Sense Awareness skills.

Alertness is an unconscious use of noticing things around you without specifically looking for it. This is rolled by me the GM without the PCs knowledge.

Observation is an active use of the skill. This is still rolled by the GM (as the result shouldn't be known by the PC) but only after the PC has specifically stated that they want to use the skill.

The above two are clear. It's the Sense Awareness skills that I'm not sure about. I know that they're split into the different senses and developed individually when you level up. That's not the problem part. The problem is where the Sense Awareness skill is used instead of either the Alertness or Observation skills and why.

The responses I had yesterday before the database crash were that the Sense Awareness skills were similar to the Alertness skill - being an unconscious use of the senses to notice something.

I like the fact that the Sense Awareness skills are split up between the senses especially when Elves get an extra bonus to Sense Awareness - hearing but at what point would the GM choose to use a character's Alertness skill or Sense Awareness skill to roll against to see if the PC noticed something. From the description, the Alertness skill seems to encompass all the senses (or more specifically it doesn't mention that it's limited to a specific sense).

Also, the Observation skill description doesn't mention a limitation to just sight (although 'observation' makes you initially think of sight but your ability to actively notice something covers more than just your sight). If the Sense Awareness skills are not unconsciously used like Alertness, it would mean it'll compete with the Observation skill.

If Sense Awareness skills were not used, it's easy to see that you'd use the Alertness for unconsciously noticing something and the Observation skill to actively notice something. but if the Sense Awareness are used, they could replace the Alertness of the Observation skills depending on whether theSense Awareness skills are passive or active.

As you can see, I'm still going round and round in circles about this. Please help. 

Thanks

[yammahoper]

I think of sense awareness skills as instictive ability, like a predators natural inclination to notice movement for sense sight, or the excellent hearing of many animals in sense hearing skill.

Sense skills should be used as an uber observation skill.  So make sense skills when a PC might percieve something that you feel normal observation could not.  Animals hear something before an earthquake, predators notice a flash of movement on the horizon, perhaps a mage might see some shift in the essence prior to a epic event.  In the end, sense skills are best used as triggers to use other skills to resolve or investigate a problem at hand.  PC's should only have these skills if they have some sort of hieghtened sense, like an elves hearing.  Typically a talent will lead to the development of these skills.

[Arioch]

IMHO the various awareness senses skills don't make sense at all (no pun intended), so I dropped them.
Really, I think that 2 Perception skills (Alertness and Observation) are more than enough.

[Temujin]

I was wondering where my reply had gone away

Basically, Alertness allows one to roll maneuvers for things like Observation and the other Awareness * Searching skills, reactively (when not paying attention).

Sense Awareness skills are also reactive, but unlike Alertness, apply to only one sense.  On the bright side, they scale better, so may be a better investment than Alertness overall, though not as wide ranging since you effectively need 5 skills to cover what Alertness covers alone.

[markc]

 To me the " Awar Sense" skills [hearing, sight, smell, touch, etc] are to represent heightened senses in a fantasy setting. So maybe a 1/2 man 1/2 wolf may have Alertness at 29, Observation of 40 and a Sense: Smell of 65 at 100 yards. [Note I just threw in the range of the Sense: Smell off the top of my head and it is not listed anywhere in any book]. And the GM or player would use any of the skills that apply.

 A house rule on my part is to get rid of the Awar: Sense skills for races that it does not really apply to. So maybe I will have a wolf have Awar: Smell at 65 at 100 yards and a Observation of 30 for sight since they depend on smell so much. I think you can also see in this case that the Awar: Sense skill as I use it can have many applications in a fantasy setting to provide a mechanism for races, PC's and NPC's. Maybe you want a skill for sensing essence so you place the skill here for that, maybe you want a skill to sense undead so you put it here, maybe you create a race that has special sense abilities so you place the skill here.
 Since I get rid of the skills, how do I use them with the normal fantasy races? Well I cut the bonus given for the Awar: Sense by 1/2 and apply it to Observation and sometimes I divide the bonus by 5 and apply it to Alertness as well. I did this because IMO both of those skills IMO use all of the PC's senses to detect things so thus the bonus. Also you confusion with the skill's was common among my new players as well as just what skill do they use in any given situation. So I created the house rule above and have not had a problem since. Well except for shapeshifter PC's having to develop different skills when in their animal shape.

MDC

[Dark Schneider]

If that is confusing, then think about Alertness and Sense ambush. It is not supposed Alertness to be used in the same way?.

And about skill number, maybe all are not necessary, but more than 2 are required in RMFRP because you have more DPs, so IMO the intention is that specialized professions in awareness (thief, ranger, etc.) are those who can detect traps for example.

So, observation is developed by all, but because DP cost, only those specialized professions will have a good chance to perceive some things.

[Right Wing Wacko]

IMHO the various awareness senses skills don't make sense at all (no pun intended), so I dropped them.
Really, I think that 2 Perception skills (Alertness and Observation) are more than enough.

I agree.

[markc]

If that is confusing, then think about Alertness and Sense ambush. It is not supposed Alertness to be used in the same way?.

And about skill number, maybe all are not necessary, but more than 2 are required in RMFRP because you have more DPs, so IMO the intention is that specialized professions in awareness (thief, ranger, etc.) are those who can detect traps for example.

So, observation is developed by all, but because DP cost, only those specialized professions will have a good chance to perceive some things.

 Yes I have also dropped Sense Ambush from my skill list and just use Alertness, Observation or maybe another skill.
 For example: a scout for the Lord's Foot; force is moving ahead of his battle brothers just as he was taught by old Gerith. Ahead he notices perfect ambush spot for archers and a small group of foot to surprise travelers on the path that locals in these parts call a road. He uses Military Tactics to determine the location up ahead where he would set a ambush.
 For Example: A group of adventures are taking a short cut to bypass a flooded bridge and during there rest break one notices a bush, that is swaying in the opposite direction the wind blows. The skill here IMO is Observation to notice the flora moving in a strange way.
 For Example: A group of guards are tasked to bring back Lord Heron, his family and aids to answer for missing taxes and/or falsifying reports to the King. The guards are let into Lord Herons court and read the proclamation set forth by the Kings Will, [His advisors]. After the crier has finished reading one of the guard notices one of the tapestries slowly move away from the wall. The guard used Alertness to detect the ambush set by Lord Heron. Hopefully it will enable the guardsmen to survive the ambush and be able to perform the Kings Will.

MDC

[rdanhenry]

Based on a discussion on the mailing list in 2000, with input from the old ICE:

The Sense/Situational Awareness skills operate automatically/subconsciously, like Alertness, but are specialized and trainable.

Alertness would allow you to notice a likely ambush sight upon first seeing it; Sense Ambush would provide a second roll to detect an ambush right before it is sprung (including a seemingly-friendly individual pulling a knife). Basically, it gives you a chance to avoid surprise and use of the Ambush skill. In other words, other skills give you a chance to avoid the ambush, Sense Ambush lets you react when it happens to make the ambush less effective. [I might allow it to detect someone picking your pocket, as well, since that's a similar intrusion into your personal space.]

[markc]

 
[House Rule]
  I can also say that I do not use Situational Awareness [Focus or Profession] as IMO this is covered by the skill or profession itself.  I know people like it but for some reason it just seems a little iffy to me. As I just allow a Observation or an Alertness roll to be used in place of Sit. Awar. [Focus]. I understand that they way I do it it does not allow for a character to be observant for a profession/activity and have poor normal awareness in general.
  Maybe I will think on a new house rule that applies mods to rolls for Awareness type actions or limit Awareness mod's based on the amount of ranks in a profession skill or other skill awareness action.

MDC

[Dark Schneider]

Think that there is one needed Situational Awareness, the combat one, as it is used in many ways, if you use Observation you are using too much % activity so you lose your chance to make attacks.

But, in the awareness-searching category, IMO more than 1 should be used, detect traps (used for ambush actively too) or lie perception. Really, IMO, only remove surveillance and maybe locate hidden (that can be replaced by observation) and joining read tracks with tracking should be done. All others are specialized perceptions and I think they shouldn't be combined with observation.

Alertness would allow you to notice a likely ambush sight upon first seeing it; Sense Ambush would provide a second roll to detect an ambush right before it is sprung (including a seemingly-friendly individual pulling a knife).

That is an excellent idea, so we can replace it for alertness or use it as second chance to success, as this category skillls have low bonus, but only against ambush of any type, could this include traps?, I say this because the example of a ninja, it has sense ambush as everyman because is supposed to be specialized in traps/ambush (do and evade them), so it sounds like it.

A good idea could be everyone list the skills in his/her opinion should be used, mine is:

- Awareness-perceptions: both if sense ambush is used as 2nd chance roll, if not, only alertness.

- Awareness-searching: detect traps, lie perception, observation, poison perception, tracking.

- Awareness-senses: all used but sense awareness should be removed as we can use observation for all those purposes.
Situational awareness is not clear and depends on any group/GM to define the skills under this one. See that we can create anyone in this section, for example we can develop sit.awa.sleeping, so we can use a good bonus instead alertness when we are sleeping. So situational awareness should be an important target.

[Kalu]

I consider the Sense Awareness skills Development Point sinks, and prefer to have my players use their valuable DPs on other more useful skills. You can always dream up situations where a more specialized version of a skill would be useful, but that should IMHO be handled by varying the difficulty instead of requiring the use of an additional skill.

Generally, I'd like to see an approach to skill cost assignment that makes a distinction between basic, general skills and specialized skills. Sort of like an extra layer between skill categories and specific skills...

//K

[markc]

DS;
 I generally give the professions with a bonus to Combat Awareness a bonus Alertness skill rolls in battle. I also use a different combat system in which you can take a little more time for an Alertness check and receive a bonus to your roll.

 I do not think I need to create a special talent as I already provide a means for PC's to have a bonus on any skill. But I can see how listing some general examples of my any skill "bonus" as specific talents would work very well.

MDC

[DavidKlecker]

Here's is what I do and it works well for our group.

Alertness is a sixth sense roll. The GM asks you to roll for this as a subconcious awareness of something not right. You augment the skill bonus by applying the number of ranks in the appropriate sense skill into Alertness. For example, you are walking and the GM asks you to roll an alertness but what he doesn't tell you is that it is for a hearing roll. You have 5 ranks in your hearing and 5 ranks in Alertness. The GM takes your 5 ranks in hearing and adds them to your 5 ranks in Alertness. Since Alertness is 1 per rank the GM just adds 5 to the players alertness roll.

Sense Ambush is augmented by the player's Situational Awareness: Combat skill.

Observation is a regular roll for what you see and if the GM is leaning towards a certain sight, again the GM will augment your sense skill towards your observation roll. This could be done in almost any way however I think the best way is again use your rank bonus divided by two and add any special bonus and item bonus you have for this skill. I don't include any observation special bonus or item bonus unless they are higher. If so I just use those bonuses. (I give the advantage to the player).

[Right Wing Wacko]

Whats the difference between observation, locate hidden, and detect traps?
Yes, I've read the thread, but I want more specifics and better explanation.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of each? Why would a PC choose one skill over another?

And why does it seem there are a number of skills that seem to do the same thing?

I made up a character last night, getting a campaign fleshed out that I am running sometime in the near future, and fumbled around the skill section for a good hour...

[Arioch]

And why does it seem there are a number of skills that seem to do the same thing?

Because there are a number of skills that do the same thing. 

Whats the difference between observation, locate hidden, and detect traps?

Locate hidden and detect traps are basically specializations of the observation skill but, insetad of just having a bonus to awareness skills in specific situations, we have various separate skills, which must be developed separately. 
Same thing for awareness/ detect ambush and for all "sense" skill.

IMHO to be coherent with the logic of the skill system the awareness skills should be handled differently, either by dropping the general skills (alertness/observation) or the other ones...

[ToM]

IMHO the various awareness senses skills don't make sense at all (no pun intended), so I dropped them.
Really, I think that 2 Perception skills (Alertness and Observation) are more than enough.

Yep. Me too.

Only, I splitted Observation in two: Spot and Listen.
No other perceptions needed except for Tracking.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Would it hurt anything if I just use Observation (perhaps split into Spot and Listen as has been previously mentioned) and Alertness? And just Tracking instead of Tracking and Track Reading?

I mean DP or character wise?

Thanks for the help and ideas guys!

[markc]

 RWW,
 As a house rule I use all of them but the Situation Awareness skills and as a house rule I do not see a problem with your using the skills as you do. Also IMO you may have to adjust the skills of various professions as they provide a bonus to Sit. Awar. skills.

MDC

[Arioch]

Would it hurt anything if I just use Observation (perhaps split into Spot and Listen as has been previously mentioned) and Alertness? And just Tracking instead of Tracking and Track Reading?

I mean DP or character wise?

Thanks for the help and ideas guys!

No, I do exactly like you said and have no problem at all.