Topic: Parrying missile fire

[The Dwarf]

So i'm back with the old classic "how does this work?" 
I was reading the parrying missile fire in RMSS manual page 92, the rule says that if i'm aware of being a target of a missile attack, if I have a shield or suitable terrain to parry, if I have declared it and have reserved 50% of my char activity i can shift my OB to DB to parry a missile attack.

If I'm reading this correctly it means that
a) I have a full shield (+25 DB vs missile) and I have a 60 OB with tha handaxe wich I'm currently wielding, by declaring it and spending 50% activity I can have a DB of 85 (25 from the shield and 60 from my OB converted to DB)

and

b) I have a dagger and my OB with it is 95, my bonus to defense for Qu stat is 18 (a Qu of +6) and i have a rock wich  can use as a cover, i can put up a DB of 113 if I declare it (I'm aware of the attack and have declared the 50% activity)

Am i right?
Thanks

[Ecthelion]

At least that's how I also have always interpreted the Missile Parry rules.

[jolt]

Your interpretation of the rules seems to be correct to me though, after reading it, case b) doesn't seem to make much sense.

Why would how good you are with the dagger, or any of your weapons, help you duck behind a rock?  As I understand it, the dagger is not being used to actually parry the missle so one's skill in it would seem irrelevant to me.  I don't have a better idea off the top of my head but my suspension of disbelief would take a pretty big hit if I see someone about to shoot an arrow at me, I dive behind a rock, arrow misses and I think "Whew, good thing I had my dagger out".

jolt

[Fidoric]

Same for me. In that case, I would rather use a maneuver to gain a cover bonus to DB.

[rdanhenry]

It's a psychological effect. Your dagger gives you confidence, and you make quicker decisions and move with extra speed.

So, I'd allow any weapon you have on hand, so long as you could use it once face to face with the enemy.

Or else one could consider missile parry a well-known, long-standing issue for Rolemaster, which it is puzzling was not addressed with the RMSS rules revisions.

[runequester]

I'd just treat cover as a fixed bonus to DB.

[yammahoper]

Cover should be a fixed bonus to DB, and double the bonus to DB versus indirect fire.

[mtpnj]

I think that you may be reading it wrong.  In point 2 under parrying missle fire it says that you must use a shield(a weapon won't do).  It looks like that it takes more effort to parry missles than melee so that is why you have to decrease your ob bonus to get your full shield bonus.

[rdanhenry]

mtpnj, the point that you are missing is that while you need a shield (or cover) to parry missiles, it is still a shift of OB to DB and your OB depends on your weapon.

[Ecthelion]

I always thought an explanation could be that combatants learn how to use a shield or terrain against missiles while learning how to use their weapon. I agree that a skill might have been the better choice, but at the time of RM1 there was only a very limited set of skills and adding a skill only for parrying missiles might have seemed a bit over the top. Personally I like the way HARP solved the problem of evading missiles only via cover or via dodging. OTOH this makes missiles very deadly in comparison to RM where a weapon skill can be used to parry them.

[pastaav]

b) I have a dagger and my OB with it is 95, my bonus to defense for Qu stat is 18 (a Qu of +6) and i have a rock wich  can use as a cover, i can put up a DB of 113 if I declare it (I'm aware of the attack and have declared the 50% activity)

From my point of view this ruling is a try to handle the dodge-behind-cover situation. With only a dagger and no cover you can not parry the missile attack, the archer would only wait to take the shot to right moment.

On the other hand it does make sense that the experienced fighter with 95 in OB has had more practice on sudden dodge when he stumbles into a situation with an archer than a amateur. If the gaming group use skills like tumbling you could use that instead, but in the absence of such I think the OB shift is a workable solution.

[markc]

 I use a different combat system but I will throw my 2 cents into the pot.

 IMO you have to take a 50% action to protect yourself from the missile fire with a shield. Since you did this it limits any attack you might make upon another target. IMO I would not let OB from a weapon be moved into DB [but again I use a different combat system]. If I did allow a combatant to add OB to DB in this case I would allow the ranks of the weapon skill to be added to the DB of the shield and Qu bonus. Why? Well I am using the RMSS Adrenal Defense skill for reference when I make my decision.
 Any cover I would have to make a decision on how much DB it gave to the person or even if the the archer/bowman/thrower could still attempt an attack. ie move behind a 20' wide tree = no attack unless they have line of sight. If you are not using a map and mini's for reference then again the Gm has to make rule decision.

Did that help at all? If not I will dig in my books and see if I can not get you a better answer.
MDC   

[giulio.trimarco]

When playing RMSS I adopted this solution:

I created combined skill group: Shields (The some cost and 1-H crushing).
OR
You can create a normal skill (and group): Shields (The some cost and 1-H crushing).

Using DB from the shield will reduce OB of the weapon the some amount (No negative OB allowed). Of course you can use how much DB you like.
This make sense since using shield is an active action and protecting oneself fiercely reduce offensive capabilities (I assure you  )

Explanation:
If you have only a shield in your hand you can defend your self.
Shields were an integral part of a warrior training, and not a wooden wall. Deflecting, obscuring and intercepting is essential.
If you have a weapon in witch you are not trained (low OB) you will do very weak attacks (OB 0 ?), but you can still defend yourself.

EDIT for Shield:
Even if you don't use any DB from your shield skill, the DB from the shield isfelf (the object) is still applyed.
In addition you can redistribute shield's DB to more opponents (use good sense here).

Option:

Do the some thing for a dodge skill.

EDIT for Dodge:
Against low velocity (thrown weapons) use all DB.
Against high velocity (arrows/sling) use half DB.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Why would how good you are with the dagger, or any of your weapons, help you duck behind a rock? 

One of the core concepts behind "Parrying" as defined by Rolemaster (as I understand it, mind you) is that "Parrying" is not and does not only consist of deflecting an attack with the weapon being held.

It is, more accurately, described as taking a more defensive posture overall. Of shifting your offensive capabilities (which are reflected by OB) to increase your defensive capability (as defined by DB).

Granted, there ARE a number of logical inconsistencies within such, especially when the defender isn't even holding a weapon (RM does not specify what to do in this sort of situation).

Nor does your skill with a weapon properly indicate your full offensive capability, IMHO.

Personally, I prefer the Acrobatics/Agility roll to increase DB through dodging rather than parrying. 

[Arioch]

Granted, there ARE a number of logical inconsistencies within such, especially when the defender isn't even holding a weapon (RM does not specify what to do in this sort of situation).

Nor does your skill with a weapon properly indicate your full offensive capability, IMHO.

I agree that parrying and other defensive moves in RM have some problems, but I like the basic concept of lowering your OB to increase your DB. Straight and simple.
Most of the problems imho come from the fact that the people who wrote the rules tried to rationalize it too much, tried to tie the mechanic to actual specific actions made by the caracters in game and add a lot of exceptions: you cannot "parry" missile attacks normally (which make sense if you're actually trying to parry an arrow with your weapon but not if you consider "parry" a general defensive action), using 2 handed weapons to "parry" is difficult ( ), you cannot split your parry between more than one enemy, and so on...

Instead of adding more defensive maneuvers (and additional rules to handle them  ) I would drop all these exceptions and just use the basic "parry" rules against all attacks.

[jolt]

I think i'm going to come up with some kind of rule that states the amount of OB that can be transferred to DB, for parrying missle fire, is restricted by how much cover is actually available and how much activity you're going to devote to using that cover.  For instance, a two foot deep shallow in the middle of the plains isn't going to provide much cover so maybe allow, at most, 25% of OB to be transferred over.  At the same time, the character may go prone in the shallow keeping his head down.  That might be good for 100% OB but is probably going to use more than 50% activity too.

I also thought about using the agility stat (not the bonus) for the DB to reflect how well your able to use cover since this wouldn't require you to have a weapon in hand to be effective (or even a shield if you're literally diving for cover).  This does create a distinction between using a shield to try and block a missle attack and using cover for protection.

jolt

[pastaav]

I think i'm going to come up with some kind of rule that states the amount of OB that can be transferred to DB, for parrying missle fire, is restricted by how much cover is actually available and how much activity you're going to devote to using that cover.  For instance, a two foot deep shallow in the middle of the plains isn't going to provide much cover so maybe allow, at most, 25% of OB to be transferred over.  At the same time, the character may go prone in the shallow keeping his head down.  That might be good for 100% OB but is probably going to use more than 50% activity too.

I look at your houserule and think that we have a very different thoughts about what the rules says. My interpretation is that if you remain static you can't claim any DB unless you have a shield, partial cover or full cover.

On the other hand...if you are diving for cover then you are pretty hard to hit. My ruling is that the parry only applies during the diving for cover action. Afterwards when you are static behind the cover you get the benefit of the cover and can not boost this by parry.

[yammahoper]

If you parry a missle, which assumes cover or a shield, it cost 50% activity.  Thus, reduce OB by 50, assign your parry, then either attack with remaining OB or mnv with 50% action left.  It is clean, crisp and simple.

[jolt]

What happens when an archer shoots at me, I'm not aware of the attack, but 75% of me is behind a huge boulder?  Am I more protected if I have a weapon drawn?  What if i'm aware of the attack but have no weapon?  I'm my mind at least, I have trouble reconciling that using a shield and ducking behind cover are the same thing (unless you've got a big honkin' tower shield and are crouched down behind it).  A shield, typically, only has value when it's actively being used to block something.  Cover is a more passive defense; it's either there or it isn't.

I realise that such a rule might not be for everyone, but I'm thinking that I need to put something in place in additon to what's already there for my game.  You don't "use" a boulder to block a missle attack; it's just there.  And how skilled you are with a weapon shouldn't, IMO, make the boulder more impervious (or even potentially so) than it was before.  The more I think about it the more it bugs me.  For my game, I need to come up with something that addresses this.  If this doesn't bother you then game on!

jolt

[RandalThor]

I get the "You don't "use" a boulder to block a missle attack" but cover isn't necessarily passive - at least not in how it is used. I can choose to use less cover than something can give me, usually in order for me to still be able to see and do something myself. Like, not completely ducking behind the large boulder in order to be able to return fire. That means that I don't have the full cover bonus, more like partial cover or whatever.

I would suggest upping cover bonuses (especially those given by shields) and going with them. But, enforce modifers on the actions taken by those using the cover comiserate with the bonus to their DB. You can decide what they are for your game.

As for Parrying Missile fire with weapons, there are special skills for that, otherwise it is impossible (or at least highly inefficient), right?!?