Topic: Effects of aging on ruined civilizations.

[Mark999]

In many cases the GM will run adventures on planets with ancient ruins(and such). How would the effects of aging change roads, buildings, vehicles, equipment, and etc. supposing those ruins could be 1000, 5000, or even 100,000 yrs. old. I have a general idea but science isn't my specialty. Some more specific knowledge on this subject would be helpful.

Mark 999

[DJRJ_AU]

If you can, check out a television program called "After Man".  It shows what would happen to our cities and so on if mankind were to suddenly disappear overnight.  In short though much of what we created as part of the modern world (bridges, skyscrapers, roads and so on) would be quickly reclaimed by the terrain.  Within 100 - 200 years little would remain.



Doug

[markc]

Mark999,
 The show in the above post is on the History Channle if they get it.

 IMO after 1000, 5000, or 100,000 would not be very different. The only differemce I could see is the pile of rubble. Now if they were super advanced society then they might have automated repair and reconstruction. In this case the cities would look the same as when people had died off. now there might be a lack of specific raw materials as the socities before them had mined them from the planet.

 If you give me some more infomation about the tech levels of the societies or society that was there before then I might be able to give you a better answer.

MDC

[GrumpyOldFart]

The program is on History Channel, it's called "Life After People", and here's a link to it:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4939078184096254535

It'll give you some idea on aging, I think. But yeah, most of the stuff that won't be there after 10,000 or 50,000 years won't be there after 500 either.

[Mark999]

Mark999,
 The show in the above post is on the History Channle if they get it.

 IMO after 1000, 5000, or 100,000 would not be very different. The only differemce I could see is the pile of rubble. Now if they were super advanced society then they might have automated repair and reconstruction. In this case the cities would look the same as when people had died off. now there might be a lack of specific raw materials as the socities before them had mined them from the planet.

 If you give me some more infomation about the tech levels of the societies or society that was there before then I might be able to give you a better answer.

MDC

Ok, lets say comparing a 20th century culture(i.e. concrete, steel, rebar, etc.) with a more present SM time where construction materials are much stronger(i.e. crysteel). Would the weight of a building, for example, have an effect on how fast the terrian can claim it(assuming it's made of steel or something stronger so that it wouldnt come apart as easy as brick or stone? An old weapon burried underground after 1000 yrs might not be repairable without replaceing most or all of its parts(if its repairable), but what if the weapon was in a strong and airtight  lockbox then how long might it last without requireing a more complex manauver than medium(+0) to fix it?

[markc]

Mark999:

 OK, I wrote a lot of stuff below but the simple answer is it is up to the GM and his story. If you are trying to be fair and decide on a d100 roll. Think about what the equipment is, how it was stored, what tec level it was first introduced, what tec level is it now, can it benefit from more advanced materials and how well is it made.
 Also if you can give me a list of the stuff, enviroment and your parties tec level; I could give you what I would rule in my game. But my info should not be used against the GM as it is his story.
 Also I am just guessing as to what will happen again the game or story is IMO what is important as well as having fun.

1) Building of Crysteel: From the SM2 book Armored Assault and the SM:P Vehicle Companion I get some different information. If you have SM:P look at the engineering information in the from of SM:P VM; SM:P TM ; SM:P BL or the main SM:P book. But my take on the info is that in SM:P tech there would be repair bots or nano-repair bots to aid in the repair of buildings and other important structures. That self repair and intelligent repair is IMO the whole tipping point as more advanced buildings may have smoother surfaces so things could to stick to them as fast but it would take the same amount of time as a modern city to be overgrown and become a very dangerous place as pieces would become structurally unsound.
 Another note buildings of stone or brick may last as long or longer than more advanced building materials as IMO the defining factor would be the building itself? If it was a simple spherical 1 story home then it would be overgrown in maybe 20 years but last 200 years and a skyscraper would begin to fall apart after 50 years and be rubble buy 100 or 150 years.

2) Equipment: IMO there are a couple of factors.
  A) The function of the equipment. IE What does it do and what environment was it designed to work in.
  B) Tech Level: IMO some equipment can benefit from more advanced materials and tech advances than others.
  C) Quality of Equipment: This also is important as generally better quality stuff will last longer.
  E) The object itself. IE an advanced clear material used in a intricate tube and shape art object will probably be damaged when the building it was in crumbles around it. But you may find pieces of it around.

 2 Thoughts) IMO almost any thing is an air tight container that was designed to last a very long time would be ok. As a GM you might determine or set the amount of time the sealed container was good for. With high tech societies being able to preserve things longer. So maybe you take the Tec Level and say at our current technology we could preserve something for 150 years and double that number for 3 tech levels and then multiple it by 3 for two tech levels and then by 4 for five more tec levels. And then roll D100 and read the difficulty you set on the chart.
 Equipment like a spaceship that requires a lot of up keep would be in poor shape in a jungle after the out cropping the players left it on collapsed into rubble. Where an ice climbing axe might be in perfect shape.
 Also what the device is would determine the difficulty in fixing it and the GM may rule that it simply is unfixable. So you would have to recreate it from scratch. Which depending on the tec equipment and materials you have it might be easy or very hard.

MDC

[GrumpyOldFart]

Hoover Dam is nearly 75 years old and is such an incredible volume of concrete that parts of it are supposedly still curing. It may still be holding 10,000 years from now. If not, there are likely to be chunks of it still there, perhaps buried/submerged under what will be left of Lake Mead after it collapses. In the same way, the Pyramids are likely to last out of sheer volume. A more interesting question to me is how long a hardened missile silo will last? I think I can safely assure you that one in a desert area of Arizona will last a lot longer than one in, say, the Ozark mountains of Missouri.
As for future tech levels, ask yourself a few questions about the materials from which something is built.
 1) Is it porous, can it absorb other substances? Even iron is porous. The more porous something is, the faster it corrodes, because more things can get under the surface of the material.
 2) Does it contain volatile substances, things that can evaporate? The more it does, the faster it will "dry rot". Rubber and most plastics are like this.
 3) How chemically inert is it? If it reacts with other substances AT ALL, that will eventually destroy it. The reason aluminum and stainless last so well is because the surface, that part most exposed, is an oxide that is very stable, not very reactive at all.
 4) Does anything even loosely regard the substance as food? Wood gets eaten quickly, but even plastics get eaten by bacteria over enough time.
 5) How extreme are the changes in conditions? The more extreme the conditions range (hot/cold, wet/dry, windy/still, etc.), the faster they will contribute to something's destruction.

It's an indeterminate question because there are too many choices of where is it and what is it made of, so no one can give you a concrete answer on "How fast civilizations fall to ruin." But the above are pretty much the major factors.