Topic: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)

[rdanhenry]

You can study physics as late into life as you like, but to be a real physicist, you need to get their early. Even life-long career physicists are all but washed-up by thirty. Different types of abilities are available at different stages of life. It is entirely possible that linking to a source of magical power can only be done in one's youth. I'm not saying that this is the only way to go, but unless you assume that casting a spell is no more than following a recipe, then there's no reason to assume you could ever hope to change your spell list access.

[thrud]

GrumpyOldFart> The easy way of solving this is averageing the two professions skill costs for a number of levels.

rdanhenry> Everyone can learn spell lists, it just cost more for some professions.

[markc]

GrumpyOldFart> The easy way of solving this is averageing the two professions skill costs for a number of levels.

rdanhenry> Everyone can learn spell lists, it just cost more for some professions.

 In RM2/C spell lists are tied to professions so everyone can not learn lists unless you use some optional rules in one of the RCO's. The option to open up lists to every profession may be in the RMC SL but I am not sure but I do remember seeing it in one of the RCO's before seeing it in RMSS/FRP.

MDC

[GrumpyOldFart]

GrumpyOldFart> The easy way of solving this is averageing the two professions skill costs for a number of levels.

Depending on which RM system you're talking about, that can be a lot of information tracking. Fine and good, no one says changing classes has to be easy. But if you'd rather be able to just refer a player to costs that are already written down on a table somewhere...let's see...
You're a fighter, circumstances dictate that you learn to be a magician. You spend a level buying magician skills at fighter DP costs, and the next level your costs change to Warrior Mage/Elemental Warrior/Whatever.
You can stop there if you like, but if circumstances require that you go all the way to magician, you spend another 2 levels getting magician skills at Warrior Mage DP prices. And then, you get magician DP costs.
Let's hope you can stop there, because if you have to become an Arcanist you have 2 more steps to go yet. From pure to hybrid caster will cost you 3 levels and hyrbid to arcane will cost you 4.

[Moriarty]

So far we have seen occupation, career, mindset, natural predisposition, even genetic disposition.
Mindset, perhaps, but I do not agree with any of the other descriptions of a RM profession.

To me, professions are not an attempt to be realistic about careers or predispositions.
Professions are first and foremost foundations of and catalysts for a great fantasy setting.

Professions bring archetypes into the game, and serve as inspiration for the players.
Hence a profession can be a chosen path, an idea, a hope of excellence, or the notion of fulfillment of purpose.

I would not allow a player to change his character's profession, even if the character's chosen path could realistically be strayed from.
I feel that for the sake of the game, the player should be committed to his choice.

[markc]

 Well I will try again as a misit key lost my last post. But that was a good thing as it gave me an idea.

1) Use RMSS/FRP training packages that provide a discount for skills focused on. I think the DP adjusted cost is 75% or 80% but I am away from my books right now.

2A) Or you can use your own special TP idea and adjust the DP cost by whatever you feel approperate. Or maybe a sliding scale DP cost that adjusts for the amount of time spent focused on the area of interest.
 Example: if a fighter spends 3 months trying to learn a spell TP it costs 30 DP nut if they spend 6 months it only costs 20 DP.
2B) The problem with the above is IMO you have to create a framwork to determine the difficulty of the package for the learner. Then you have to define a sliding scale for the discount based on package difficulty and time spent trying to learn the skills.
3) Or you can just give the player a rank or two if you feel they have spent enought time trying to learn something.

MDC
 

[GrumpyOldFart]

I wasn't trying for realistic. I was trying for something that a) makes it possible to change class, b) makes it pretty simple for the GM to explain and rule on, and c) requires enough attention and investment from the player that it won't be something they do lightly. If a GM wants to encourage it or discourage it he can alter the times and conditions to make it more or less of a pain.

[Arioch]

Hmmm... reading this, I think that yes there should be some provision for changing the course of your life, as in RL obviously many have.

True, but RM isn't the real world, and in RM profession determine what are you character's aptitudes, what he'll learn easily and what not. You cannot change those aptitudes and imho it's better to leave it as it is, as is one of the core assumptions of the system and it would be extremely difficult to change how professions work and keep the game balanced...

Your fighter wants to learn magic? Fine, take a lifestyle TP and start developing ranks in TP's spells.

[rdanhenry]

rdanhenry> Everyone can learn spell lists, it just cost more for some professions.

Right, Rolemaster (in SS/FRP forms) allows anyone to learn any skill without any hard limits -- which is already more lenient than the real world.

But you have to choose a realm when you start the game, even if you are a Thief. You start the game with a specific relationship to magic.

[thrud]

I wasn't trying for realistic. I was trying for something that a) makes it possible to change class, b) makes it pretty simple for the GM to explain and rule on, and c) requires enough attention and investment from the player that it won't be something they do lightly. If a GM wants to encourage it or discourage it he can alter the times and conditions to make it more or less of a pain.

I couldn't have said it better myself. You summed up my feelings pretty well there. 
Realism is all well and good but it's a fantasy game and the main point is having fun.

[pastaav]

Actually I am wondering if you are not chasing a Illusion...what kind of game balance are you after really if you even consider profession change in the first place?

If we take a very good example from this thread...Forrest Gump the archtypical Fighter. He is great at fighting, athletic skills and easily masters a number of non academic occupations. What exactly would you say mr Gump should do if he wanted to change from his current profession Fighter because he has taken new occupation?
Will he really become smart and academic suited because he decide to apply to the university?
Or is it really that the player choose an armsuser exactly over an semi spellcaster because he wanted to neglect the option of academia to be the perfect fighter?

If you want a balanced game then the proper answer to "I want to change my profession" is "just buy the skills, you chose your costs and must stick with them".

If the GM and player want mr Gump to become a magician anyway they can say that he woke up one day and realised he is the grand son of the legendary archmage and have been suffering from a curse/blessing imposed by the archmage that made him inclined to learn non magic skills until the time was right.

If the rest of the group need to calmed about this cheating of the system the GM can decide the player must sacrifice some arbitrary number of DP...but really the price charged will not make things fair but just make the players content.

For HARP with weak archtypes (all skills cost about the same no matter what) the change of skill costs from one profession to another is not a big deal. For RMFRP the character can access another professions base list at a reasonable price. HARP does not have the option to make reasonable differences in pricing and must impose a an extra DP tax to get the cost for access to other base spells reasonable.

I think it is a mistake to think that any "switch profession" DP-cost will make change of profession costs in RM fair compared to the gain given from raising the cost of skills suffering from diminishing returns to lower the cost of your current focus...

[thrud]

pastaav> You touch on several important issues here. Let's start with the intelligence part first. You don't get any smarter or stronger just because you feel like changing profession. The typical fighter will not be able to fill the prime requisits for a pure magic user profession and that pretty much disqualifies him right away.
On the other hand, if your stats are good enough you qualify and may proceed.

About balance and fairness. You will become more powerful than the npc's and monsters of the same level. Not really a big problem in my book. It's fair when you allow all players the same choice. Realistically though I don't see the Archmage changing profession and living out his golden years as a Barbarian. So yes it will be more beneficial for characters starting out as non's and switching to magic using professions. But they'll still be playing catch with the pures and they will always be one step behind in their magic.

[markc]

 If just want to make a profession for a computer game have the PC's start at what ever profession they want. Then design a "god" template and gradually work the PC's DP's costs to fit that template.

MDC

[Arioch]

About balance and fairness. You will become more powerful than the npc's and monsters of the same level. Not really a big problem in my book. It's fair when you allow all players the same choice. Realistically though I don't see the Archmage changing profession and living out his golden years as a Barbarian. So yes it will be more beneficial for characters starting out as non's and switching to magic using professions. But they'll still be playing catch with the pures and they will always be one step behind in their magic.

You might as well give the same skill costs to all characters and drop professions altogether...

[thrud]

I'm just arguing the opinion that allowing characters to change profession could enhance the expeience for some groups.
Personally we've never had an issue with this. No PC's have ever changed profession within our current group and so far no one's voiced any interest in doing so either. I personally have no interest in changing my profession.
I have played in games (not RM) where warriors have become proficient magicians and it's been good fun.
I have played in games (not RM) where skill costs have been the same for all professions and it's worked just fine.

Now, I love RMC just the way it is and I have no personal need for the profession change but there's no harm in keeping an open mind.

[giulio.trimarco]

I think that switching profession is not only too radical, but even unrealistic, to some extent.

What can be allowed is to change some "costs", following some "ad-hoc" rules, during the life of a character.
This is, to me, very plausible.

[Arioch]

I'm just arguing the opinion that allowing characters to change profession could enhance the expeience for some groups.

Yeah, and I replied that imho it would be easier to completely drop professions than making up rules that allows profession-switching 

Edit: better explain 
To make profession-switching possible you have to think about a lot of things, like the open/closed/base list classification, think about rules about changing realm, to prevent someone to keep going from one profession to another and so on...
Using the same costs for all characters imho would prevent many of these problems.

[giulio.trimarco]

Changing realm is a different issues, imho.

In addition changing profession could not be possible, but leaving the possibility of altering "some" of the costs of skills, is a step to personalization.

[rdanhenry]

Why all this Fighter to Magician talk? Any decent powergamer would prefer Warrior Monk to Magician!

[markc]

 if you are going to do this IMO you should start by listing all the RM[ C/X/2/SS/FRP] skill costs. And then once you have the list adverage the skills cost and see what the closest RM skill DP that comes up from your math.

 Another way to go is to let the player of the GM pick a # of specific skills or skill areas that get modified by the profession change. Also IN RM2/C/X you might want to change the level bonuses do to profession change.

 MDC