Author Topic: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)  (Read 17034 times)

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Offline dutch206

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Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« on: January 21, 2009, 03:06:27 PM »
This is a question that has been bugging me for a couple of days now.  What happens if a character (by choice or not) is no longer able to pursue his chosen profession?

Take, for example, the fictional character "Brother Cadfael" invented by Ellis Peters.  Cadfael was a warrior who came home from the Crusades, set down his sword and became a cloistered priest.  In Rolemaster terms, how would you account for this?

Or, take for example, a priest who has been excommunicated for some reason.  He decides to abandon the priesthood (rather than atone for his sins) and decides to become a Bard.  (Since most priests sing hymns in church services, this isn't as far-fetched as it seems.)  Once again, how do you account for these changes in Rolemaster?

This has really been bugging me, and I would love to hear some ideas.
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Offline Winterknight

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2009, 03:58:55 PM »
One of the things I've considered recently is the balance between RM professions.  What determines skill cost development?  What inherent qualities define a profession?   I think these and other questions have never been clearly laid out, and are thus part of the profession dilemma. 

For example, I've taken quite a shine to the Combat Companion, particularly the variable cost-for-effort method of the combat styles.  Using that system, I began to revise the list of skills and costs for the allowable professions in my campaign. That revision made me take a closer look at the Warrior Monk, and realize that the primary characteristic of that profession is the reduced costs for the adrenal moves, particularly adrenal defense.  It might even be said that without that significant advantage, there is little reason, from a pure mechanics perspective, to choose that profession.  The way that factor is incorporated into the combat styles, this advantage is greatly diminished.

To the point: I think this could be approached one of two ways.

Option 1: (The easy way) The profession defines the "mindset" of the character.  It structures the way he thinks, and cannot be changed.  The RM professions are really more of a "thought template", and group people generally into these categories.  After all, a "fighter" profession can learn subterfuge skills, he just may not have as much of an aptitude for them as a "thief" profession. Even if that fighter spent all his time theiving and sneaking, he would never find it as easy to learn as his friend the thief.

For your above example, this would mean that the warrior set aside his blade, but did not find it suddenly easier to learn the ways of academia.  He would have always approached his studies from a warrior's perspective, finding the learning as arduous as any other soldier.  Yet, if he were forced to pick up his blade again, he would find that he relearned his skills as rapidly as he once did.  His body might need conditioning once again, but he would find it easy to revert to the drills and exercises of his former profession.

Option 2: (The hard way) The character actually changes professions, and thus changes the way he thinks about the different skills.  The warrior casts off the ways of his old life, and with meditation and discipline, no longer thinks as a warrior, but as a scholar.  He may have to work to learn the basics of his new life, but because he has fully committed to this new path, he is no worse off than any other acolyte.  He learns fully as easy as they do, and if you were to require him to hone his skills as a warrior, he would find it difficult to place himself back in that frame of mind.

To make this second option work, I would want to define a true "empty vessel" template for the professions.  The No Profession profession is not that empty vessel; it is an average of abilities, attempting to walk a middle ground, but still playable.  The empty vessel would be unplayable - it would represent a ground zero worst case for all skills, and then would be buildable into the various professions.   Say, if you had 100 points of some kind of system to spend on refining the skill costs for a particular professsion, the empty vessel could then be shaped to become a fighter, a thief, a druid, a bard, whatever.  By purchasing groups of skill reductions, you could shape a profession.  This would include things like a spell-users list pick advantages, and even a fighter's professional level bonus advantage. 

This is something I would love to see laid out and clearly defined, as I think having the ability to "build" professions consistently would be of value to many a GM.  I think such an effort might require a re-evaluation of the core professions, and a few might even be slightly tweaked to make a more consistent program, but it's something I'd love to see.  This is what I though of when I ran into my concern over the Warrior Monk and the CC, and why I led with that thought.

For me then, using such a system, the warrior-turned-scholar would give up chunks of his past life/profession, and build a new one to represent his newly chosen field.  This shouldn't be a min/maxing power game exercise, but one carefully considered by the GM. 

My thoughts on the subject, anyway.
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Offline markc

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2009, 04:10:26 PM »
 IMO it is a lot more of a problem in RM2/C than in RMSS/FRP as in RMSS/FRP all professions can buy all skills or even spell lists. Tey just cost mroe fot those profesions that do not have them as there normal skill set.

 Also I think of professions as more of a genetic disposition towords specific skills.

 If you wanted you could IMO design some talents that would change some of the skill costs but you would have to be carfule of the min-max'ers. Or you might just have them not gain a level or two and then switch professions.

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Offline Fornitus

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2009, 05:21:09 PM »
 We have the character run one more level buying things at the price of their original profession. But what they buy is the determining factor to wheather they are changng classes or not. So of courst the warrior learning to be a Preist will basicaly waste a level in DP getting the new mind set for their new life.

 Then they get 2 levels worth of skills as No Porfession. Generaly these are played through.
This represents the actual transition of mind set to the new carrier.

 In their 4th level after commiting to their "new" path they get the regular costs for their new profession.

 Its kinda harsh, but getting a whole new occupation and changing your afinities (i.e. easy stuff costs less) is a harsh attempt. They also never lose any of their old skills. ;D
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Offline markc

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2009, 07:20:11 PM »
 Fornitus,
 I like the way you have attacked the problem as it provides a means to "switch" professions but at a cost that people really have to think about it.

 Also I guess in RMSS/FRP the layman profession is the best if a player thinks he is going to try more than 1 profession. Or maybe all the players start as a "layman" and then pay some talent points or background options to change to another more focused profession.

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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2009, 07:40:54 PM »
Maybe this will help:

http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/1999/mar/realms.html
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2009, 08:06:45 PM »
Or (if your players do not want to role-play the extra levels) you can make them make a one-time DP payment of whatever amount you choose (I would suggest it be an amount they can deal with in one level and still have a little bit left over) then, change the skill costs and professional bonuses, but leave all the skill ranks they have purchased so far.

Now, they use whatever remains of their DPs, and all future DPs, to purchase the skills at the new costs.

If you do not want to totally get rid of the professional bonuses, just halve each (round down, as for everything else in RM) for both professions (old and new) and apply them.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2009, 11:02:19 PM »
I wouldn't allow changing Professions at all, short of some unusual magic. Cadfael was probably a Layman/No Profession to begin with, but even assuming he was a Fighter, he'd simply need to buy different skills upon changing his career path. No longer buying combat-related skills would leave plenty of DPs free.

I can see a Cleric becoming a musician, but that's a far stretch from musician to a Bard. I suppose if he were stripped of all his Channeling spell lists and any Channeling skill and spent a decade or so in intensive training, it is just conceivable that he could switch from a Pure Channeler to a Semi of the Mentalist realm. If using a version of Rolemaster than requires a character to develop PPs as a skill, I'd make him start over when switching realms.
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Offline thrud

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 02:43:33 AM »
This is an interesting topic and the mechanics of changing profession is probably much easier a question to solve than whether or not to allow it?
First and foremost, what is a profession to you?
I'll give a few thoughts of my own to start things off.
1. All PC's are adventurers so the profession is really a natural predisposition of the character.
2. A profession is a profession is a profession.
3. A profession is just a profession but your first career changes you to the core and you will always carry that mindset with you through life.

Ok, let's take a look at things...
3. IMO this is just boring and rigid thinking.
2. If this is your view on things then changing professions should be allowed.
1. Looking at profession in this manner makes changing professions kind of impossible.

Personally I like the idea of beeing able to change profession but be ware of min/max players. It's tempting to start off as a warrior or thief and then change to a magician of some sort after a few levels.

So, how do you do it?
Fornitus had an idea and that should work?
An other variant could be averaging the cost between the old profession and the new one for a level or two? Or as may levels as you feel are proper?
The change itself shouldn't be to hard to figure out.

Offline markc

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 02:59:46 AM »
thurd,
 I think the problem comes about when a GM decides to try and recreate a PC. Or a player comes to you as a GM and says I really want to redistribute my DP for last level can I? IMO you have to keep a good track of DP's, Stats, skill costs and ranks spent per level and there is another problem with Training Packages if you are using RMSS/FRP.

 Also is HARP when a player wants to change professions then they have to spend some DP and have some other limitations. So it balances out in the end. Other wise like you say the min-maxer's will kill the game. But I try and keep an open mind about things as I know there are a lot of different types of games out there. So give it a shot. Or run a couple test games and see hot it works. Or even have some of you players create higher level PC's and see how the skills, spells and other stuff come out.

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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 04:01:29 AM »
This is a question that has been bugging me for a couple of days now.  What happens if a character (by choice or not) is no longer able to pursue his chosen profession?
We first have to define what is a profession, as some have done above. The term "profession" was AFAIK chosen by the RM designers to avoid the term "class" used by another well-known FRP system. But that this term "profession" was selected does not mean that it should be used in the same way as the common term profession. It's not a job a character does. IMO it does define the predisposition of a character towards different skills. Just as the film character Forrest Gump was easily able to pick up any skill involving movement and agility, a Fighter will be able to easily learn weapon skills. And in a similar way both have a hard time learning academic skills. With that view a character is always able to pursue his "profession" even though his job might have changed.

But there are two problems(*1) I see with this approach when actually doing RPGing:
a) The given RM professions are quite extreme concerning the differences in skill costs. E.g. if a player selects the Fighter profession his costs for magic skills are so prohibitive that by almost no means he could ever become an even average magic user. This choice of greatly differing skill costs probably was made deliberately, so that in play you could easily see the difference between a Fighter and a Magician. But when it comes to career changes it means that a career from a very different part of the profession list (e.g. magic vs. combat) can hardly be pursued. If you chose the No Profession/Layman profession for all characters then such a change would be much easier - and probably all characters would look very much alike...
b) The RM profession also limits access to Spell Lists. We probably don't want free access for any profession to any Spell List, but having Spell Lists be reserved according to the initial class/profession change OTOH makes it difficult to later switch to a new career.

*1: The term "problem" here is a bit misleading. It's more a design choice and perhaps also balancing of the different profession comes into play. It gets only problematic in the context of changing the class/profession.
Quote
Take, for example, the fictional character "Brother Cadfael" invented by Ellis Peters.  Cadfael was a warrior who came home from the Crusades, set down his sword and became a cloistered priest.  In Rolemaster terms, how would you account for this?
He starts developing different skills, lore skills and languages perhaps, during his next level advancements.
Quote
Or, take for example, a priest who has been excommunicated for some reason.  He decides to abandon the priesthood (rather than atone for his sins) and decides to become a Bard.  (Since most priests sing hymns in church services, this isn't as far-fetched as it seems.)  Once again, how do you account for these changes in Rolemaster?
The Priest/Cleric start developing Play Instrument, Singing and similar skills during his next levels.

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 04:06:08 AM »
Personally I like the idea of beeing able to change profession but be ware of min/max players. It's tempting to start off as a warrior or thief and then change to a magician of some sort after a few levels.
Yes, I would also like to see the possibility to later make larger changes to a character. This involves real access to skills that he otherwise could hardly learn and also access to spells he could not learn in earlier levels. But I think it is quite hard to solve the balancing issues involved.

Offline thrud

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 04:52:48 AM »
Working within the rules as such and assuming we use the term profession to describe a characters natural predisposition to skills.
Maybe a system for tweeking skillcosts would be better than actually changing professions?
One could say that working within a given career will give you a discount when buing skills typical fo that career? Naturally all PC's are adventurers so this will not matter a whole lot during play.
One could develp more in depth rules for teaching?
Perhaps one could invent a system for interest controlled tweeking? The player can modify a number of skill costs according to the characters current focus?
The fighter really wants to learn magic and changes his focus. He goes out, buys a dress and start wearing a pointy hat... Start reading books in different topics, studies magic and so forth. He would then be able to adjust the skill costs somewhat to fit his new career? I would suggest that the GM put a lot of restrictions on the players so they don't go around shifting focus each and every level but at the same time it should be doable.

Just a some ideas to toy with...

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 05:58:07 AM »
Skill groups could have a base cost and a "counter group".

Example:
I pay for Adrenal Moves a cost, selected from a list of 3 or 4 possibility.
Now, based on the selected cost I need to redistribute on 1 or 2 skill groups a costs (clearly identified).

This way a table could be created that allow a personalization of the PC profession, but could be worked out to be balanced.


Offline dutch206

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 08:13:36 AM »
Interesting discussion.  I'm going to sit here and listen for a while. ;D
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Offline sunwolf

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 09:00:58 AM »
I am currently working on something where part of the cost of skills is due to an inherent template and part is due to a professional focus.  Template + focus determines skill costs.  Template can't be changed normally but focus can.  Template effects cost more than focus, but focus determines which skills can gain more than 1 rank/level.
Anything that makes the GMs life easier without messing the game up will always get a vote from me.

Offline Temujin

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 09:16:42 AM »
We have the character run one more level buying things at the price of their original profession. But what they buy is the determining factor to wheather they are changng classes or not. So of courst the warrior learning to be a Preist will basicaly waste a level in DP getting the new mind set for their new life.

 Then they get 2 levels worth of skills as No Porfession. Generaly these are played through.
This represents the actual transition of mind set to the new carrier.

 In their 4th level after commiting to their "new" path they get the regular costs for their new profession.

 Its kinda harsh, but getting a whole new occupation and changing your afinities (i.e. easy stuff costs less) is a harsh attempt. They also never lose any of their old skills. ;D

I really like the proposal and am giving you an idea point for it.  Myself, the ability to change profession was at the core of a big dilemna when learning to play Rolemaster.  Basically, I couldn't get over the fact you were stuck with a template all your life.  Nothing about powergaming, I'm entirely happy I don't have to think about whether its worth my time more to invest in a new profession this level or to stick with mine, but I just feel that PCs as any person evolves over time, and its possible to make a life changing decision.  Most of my PCs never had to even think about it.  I've ran many characters and there's only one character for which changing professions is relevant.  I've played it for 5 years and the issue hasn't come up, and likely won't for several more years, but it was still at the core of the concept.  As it was my first RM character, it was important for me to be able to conceptualize it in RM terms, because the character is a magician who thought "eventually I'll be an arcanist".  I don't buy the fact you can achieve anything through buying ranks alone, especially "other base" lists.  My GM ruled that, when you master your profession, you can enter a profession so long as you match the professional qualifier, leaving your old profession behind.  He set an arbitrary threshold of level 50 where you could transition.  Harsh, but at least I can conceptualize it, so its better than nothing.  I think your proposal has merit too, if only for the possibility to do so without getting to insanely high level (which often only an elf played by a human with too much spare time can contemplate).  It remains suitably hard to switch so that the only reason to do so would be to switch as part of a storyline, but allows to do it at any level.

Offline Temujin

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2009, 09:17:33 AM »
I am currently working on something where part of the cost of skills is due to an inherent template and part is due to a professional focus.  Template + focus determines skill costs.  Template can't be changed normally but focus can.  Template effects cost more than focus, but focus determines which skills can gain more than 1 rank/level.

Interesting.  Keep us updated :)

Offline Justin

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 09:38:35 AM »
I don't allow profession changes. Ecthelion, the definition of RM's profession isn't IYO, I believe that is actually the way it is defined, period. I warn my players of this. And nothing ever happens to them which causes them to completely redirect their *skill focus*, which is why they picked that profession in the first place. Then again, unlike some lucky folks on this board, I play about once a month for 4 hours, and my games rarely go past 1.5 yrs, so I don't have players reaching lvl 20 and the like.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2009, 01:34:13 PM »
Hmmm... reading this, I think that yes there should be some provision for changing the course of your life, as in RL obviously many have. That being said, I consider a change from Fighter to Magician more than a little extreme. I think a Fighter who tried would end up actually achieving something along the lines of a Warrior Mage.
Does that mean I think it should be impossible for someone to be a Fighter when they are a teenager and a Magician when they are old? No it does not. It means I think such a change involves at least two steps instead of one. After all, much of RM, in any version, already involves hybrids of two or more major concepts.
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