Topic: Movement and Combat

[craggles]

Hello, I'm new to the forums and new to RMFRP too.
I used to play Rolemaster 2 back when I was in College but I thught it'd be a great thing to bring my children in on so I purchased plenty of RMFRP books/pdfs and thanks to ebay as well, I have them all. My quest for total source book domination was mostly to make the excel character sheets make more sense! The character sheets make sense but I think I may have overloaded my brain with all this knowledge all of a sudden.

This will be my first time as a GM and I'm a little shaky on the rules. (everything was easy when you're just a character and you do whatever you liked without the need to trouble yourself with loads of rules)

I'm sure the posts on this subject are legion - and I searched but sifting through all the results have been problematic for my head (literally! (I am a cluster headache sufferer so be nice)) so here's the question...

Combat and movement 

• Are you able to move around people with any remaining % activity for movement in the middle of a melee situation (after the deliberate phase)?
  In other words, if, at the end of round 1 in a melee between player1 and orc1, player1 has activity left so can he use that to flank Orc1 so that next round, he'll get higher OB due to position?
  If he could, what's to stop Orc1 from doing it too?
  And if they both did it, would they simply dance about or potentially be 2 hexes apart?
• Also, is player1 able to break off melee with orc1 to attack orc2 that happens to be in the process of killing player2? Would orc1 get in a free strike on player1 before he disengaged or would he only get to do that if his initiative was after player1's move?
• Also, is player1 able to break off melee with orc1 to attack orc2 that happens to be in the process of killing player2? Would orc1 get in a free strike on player1 before he disengaged or would he only get to do that if his initiative was after player1's move?
• Also, are there any penalties to moving past other combatants engaged in a melee? (besides a difficulty level for a maneuver roll) - I'm thinking free strikes on that person, for instance, if player3 wanted to pass by a melee situation with Player1 and orc1.

there's more...

• If player4 had a bow and was attacking orc3 (poor orcs, I know), could he keep backing away out of orc3's movement range while firing at him?

I did a little playtest today to see if I understood the rules - which I obviously didn't! ..so please help  :'(

[craggles]

And there's more...

• What's to stop everyone declaring that they'll move around an opponent they're already engaged in melee with to gain the flanking bonuses in their snap phase and then attack in their normal or deliberate phase?
  

I'm sure there'll be more mysteries when I continue the play testing with my brother-in-law today and tomorrow in preparation for the family's play test on Sunday. I want Sunday to go as smoothly as possible otherwise there'll be boredom and they won?t want to do it again. (just as I bought their player miniatures as a surprise)

Thanks for your help.

[pastaav]

Hello, I'm new to the forums and new to RMFRP too.

Welcome, it is cool with new people around.

• If player4 had a bow and was attacking orc3 (poor orcs, I know), could he keep backing away out of orc3's movement range while firing at him?

Not very likely. A missile shot takes at least 30% action and reloading a bow take between 50% to 60% action. Player4 would thus have -30 on his OB and between 10% to 20% left to move. Most GMs will also put a limit on what pace Player4 can reach in so little time. A limitation orc3 would not have as it try to reach Player4.

[craggles]

Good point! Thanks

...but what about the melee problems?

[Arioch]

Welcome, I'll try to answer your questions 

1) Well, I suppose he can do it, but what stop the orc from just changing his facing and front him?

2/3) There's an action called "disengage" (cost 25% of activity) listed under the various examples of actions (sorry no book at hand so I can't tell you what page it is). To break off from combat with orc1 the character must take that action, then if orc1 declared a "press & melee" attack, I think that both must make a conflicting moving manuever. If the fighter wins he can get off to help his friend, if he lose, the orc1 gets in the way, preventing him to do so, and the player must cancel his action. Orc1 get no free attack, but the player have wasted a good amount of his activity for the round, so he'll have a worse OB (and therefore DB).

4) no, IIRC none get free attacks against characters moving near them...

5) what Pastaav said. 

6) See above, moving around an opponent cost % of activity, and he can counter you move by simply declaring a melee attack against you...

[Erik Sharma]

• I have always rule that once you have declared an opponent which you normally do in declaration phase, you always try to keep your facing against him. So if the orc that the player try to run around had him declared as an opponent I would allow him to turn against him as he tries to move around, but if he has his focus on another opponent that would be another matter. But as long as he is not engaged in melee and not focusing on something particular I would allow the orc to change facing at will for free.
  That is atleast how I have handled it and so far it seem to work well.
• Second point depends if the player declared a disengage, if not and the orc still has an attack action leftand enough percentage to attack left I would rule he could cancel his other actions and attack the player 1. But then again if the orc has a Press and Melee declared he could just follow Player 1 and attack him at his new location for only half OB penalties from movement.
• Third point is in the rulebook under conflicting actions.
• No free strikes unless opponents have opportunity actions ready then they can stop a persons movement with an attack. Kinda hard to know what is allowed depends on what actions the orcs have declared even if you move past them it's not wise to turn your backs against enemies after all nothing stops them from moving after you and stabbing you in the back.

All the points above are my interpretation of the rules in RMFRP. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[craggles]

Thanks - that makes sense.

The issue came up while going through an example in the RM5800 FRP on page 41 where 2 combatants were against an Ogre. 1 was already engaged with the ogre but the other player was able to wonder past to attack the ogre from behind.

And as you get loads of bonuses for attaching from the rear (quite rightly so), that would seem to be the ideal thing to do in any snap phase - but being engaged in melee would mean wondering around each other trying to gain the advantage over the opponent anyway and only manage to get 1 good hit in which is included in the '10 sec' round.

So it's a 'no' for moving to the rear of an opponent who you're already engaged in - and it makes perfect sense...

But what if you see each other across the room and player 1 declares he's going to run behind him in the snap phase so he can attack in the normal phase and the orc declared that he'd draw his sword in the snap phase and engage in melee in the normal or deliberate with player 1.

• If player 1 had the better initiative, would he get to go behind the orc as the orc didn't declare he'd turn around - and that player 1's movement was in the snap phase and the attack is in the normal phase which are both before the orc's 'engage in melee' in the normal phase as player 1 had the higher initiative?
  

Or would the fact that the orc declared he'd engage in melee this round be enough to say that the orc turns around to face player 1 always?[/li][/list]

I also have another question...
Does changing facing take any % activity time?

• All of a sudden, you're attacked from behind and you were hit hard and you fall to the floor. After making a 10% situational awareness roll (due to being knocked over), using the 50% time to get up from prone, is there another % needed to turn around?
  
  ...presumably if the orc didn't finish the job in the meantime (and possibly requiring a fate point to be used - but ultimately a waste of time as there can be no good outcome there no matter how many times you re-roll the crit strike)
• Or if, for instance, a successful hearing awareness roll was made (by the GM so would be 0% activity) to hear the orc draw his sword behind player 1, would player 1 need to use any % activity to turn and face the orc (as well as the 20% to draw his weapon too)?
  
  Initiative for player 1 is made by the GM as player 1 doesn't know the orc is about to attack.
  The orc declares to draw his sword in the snap and attack in the deliberate phase to rack up the bonuses.
  Player 1 has a higher initiative but doesn't hear the orc drawing his sword until it's the orc's turn in the snap phase so player 1 has lost the snap action. Can player 1 draw, turn and attack in the normal phase?

Wow - that's many more questions there hidden in the 2 big ones. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated!

On a side note, my need for drawing has been spurred on with the thought of many long heroic roleplay campaigns! Here's a proposed evil lieutenant NPC to face the party when the time comes! Warrior Mage
Another lieutenant is a war troll! 

If they didn't know it before, they would know pain and suffering now!

Thanks again!

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

• Are you able to move around people with any remaining % activity for movement in the middle of a melee situation (after the deliberate phase)?
  In other words, if, at the end of round 1 in a melee between player1 and orc1, player1 has activity left so can he use that to flank Orc1 so that next round, he'll get higher OB due to position?
  If he could, what's to stop Orc1 from doing it too?
  And if they both did it, would they simply dance about or potentially be 2 hexes apart?

Short Answer is no. Turning in place takes no action, IIRC, so all the orc has to do is to change facing accordingly.

• Also, is player1 able to break off melee with orc1 to attack orc2 that happens to be in the process of killing player2? Would orc1 get in a free strike on player1 before he disengaged or would he only get to do that if his initiative was after player1's move?

Yes, player 1 can break off to go save player 2. No, the orc will not get a free attack (there are not such in RM), but the orc might possibly get to make an attack with positional bonuses depending upon the situation, and how much movement is required for him to stay with the player.

Even though the player breaks off from the orc, the orc is unlikely to stop attacking the character...

• Also, are there any penalties to moving past other combatants engaged in a melee? (besides a difficulty level for a maneuver roll) - I'm thinking free strikes on that person, for instance, if player3 wanted to pass by a melee situation with Player1 and orc1.

RM does not have free strikes (i.e. Attacks of Opportunity) like you can find in other games. Then danger comes from the other combatants having percentage available to make attacks.

• If player4 had a bow and was attacking orc3 (poor orcs, I know), could he keep backing away out of orc3's movement range while firing at him?

I think that pastaav answered this one quite well.

• What's to stop everyone declaring that they'll move around an opponent they're already engaged in melee with to gain the flanking bonuses in their snap phase and then attack in their normal or deliberate phase?
  

As explained above, a foe can always change facing so that you do not get those bonuses - that is essentially a free action, plus one that is usually considered a given -- no foe is going to allow you to get behind them if they can help it.

And don't forget - even though there are 3 phases, you still only have 100% activity for the round. Thus, taking 20% move to get a +15 flanking bonus is kinda silly since the attack itself would be at -20 because of the move in the first place....

In order to get into a position where you can flank a foe (after facing him), you would have to perform a sudden, unexpected move on him (i.e. suddenly doing an acrobatic maneuver to get flank AND rear positional bonuses). A simple move won't work because the foe will always just turn to continue facing you.

Combat includes movement, back and forth or what have you of both combatants. For the sake of simplification, it is considered to cancel each other out when compared to that of the foe.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Couple of more points...

1) In the example you cite, the important factor to consider is that the ogre is already engaged. Without that, the character could not have moved behind him to get positional bonuses.

2) You seem to be treating the different phases as if they were 3 different rounds inside a larger round. They aren't, they are all part of a single round, and thus are limited to a total of no more than 100% activity spread across all three phases.

Thus means that in order for your character to run across the room (call it a 20% activity action, same as drawing his weapon), that is only going to leave him 80% activity to make his attack (which will be at -20 since it is not using 100% activity).

[craggles]

Thanks - that clears some things up.
(and I just worked out the movement rates of the PCs and noticed that they don't go as far as I imagined with only using 20% in the snap phase - barely 2 hexes)

The party had better be ready for total domination!!!
(well, my daughters are 8 and 12 so I'll be going easy on them)

I'll get the rules sorted in my head soon - I hope. Being a GM is more taxing than I thought it would have been - trying to get the whole picture on the world campaign as well as learning all the rules. As I was a player in the past with a really good GM and then with a really bad GM and I know how much it can sway the enjoyment for the players.

There is now one last question ...
(you didn't think it was over already did you?)

I get that the actions in all 3 phases can't be over 100% in total (and that the snap can't be over 20%, normal is 50% and the deliberate can't be over 80%) and that you can do more than 1 thing in the round as a whole ...

But can you do more than 1 thing in a single phase?
Or can you only do 3 things in total (1 thing per phase).

I can't think of anything that it would apply to - but I thought I'd ask now.

Thanks again!

[craggles]

Don't hit me - this is the last question!

...I really, REALLY mean it this time.

I get multi-round activities and their different clasifications...

but my question is about firing a bow and subsequently reloading.
Firing takes between 30% (at a -30 modification to the OB) to 60% activity (with no OB penalty) and reloading takes 60% activity (for a comp bow). This means that to fire and reload (or the other way around), you'll have to fire it at a -20 OB (as you're only using 40% activity to do it).

Can the reloading span another round or does it HAVE to be in a single round? For example, if player 1 wanted to fire without an OB penalty (thereby taking a full 60% to fire) which leaves 40% activity remaining but reloading takes 60%. Can the reloading continue onto round 2? Taking 40% of the reloading in round one but carrying over the remaining 20% where he'd fire again taking the full 60% and leaving 20% of round 2's reload into round 3 etc?
Round 1 - Fire 60% - reload 40%
Round 2 - reload (continued) 20% - Fire 60% - reload 20%
Round 3 - reload (continued) 40% - Fire 60%
...and so on

[Erik Sharma]

Well a quick answer to the last post.
Yes actions can span over multiple rounds (except attack actions as I understand it). So you could fire a Composite Bow at full 60% and start a reload for the rest of the round 40% and then complete the reload next round as a 20% action. Leaving him with 80% left well enough to do another full attack at 60% and start another reload and so on.

On the phases, as I understand you can only do one action per phase. But rest of percentages you haven't used you can spend as movement post-deliberate (when all 3 phases are over). And also remember that the percentage maximums for each phase only applies to Movement Maneuvers.

[Arioch]

But can you do more than 1 thing in a single phase?
Or can you only do 3 things in total (1 thing per phase).

No, you can only make one action per type in a round (see pag 40 of RMFRP: "Action declaration phase").
You can have more than 100% of activity in a round (for example, using haste), but you still get a maximum of 3 actions

[pastaav]

The issue came up while going through an example in the RM5800 FRP on page 41 where 2 combatants were against an Ogre. 1 was already engaged with the ogre but the other player was able to wonder past to attack the ogre from behind.

My view on the situation is that if two fighters team up on a single defender the defender get a free choice about who he faces and who gets a flank bonus.

The attackers would of course prefer to get rear bonus compared to just flank bonus and will try to make moves to achieve this. This is basically a tactical situation and I will allow both sides to make a roll to see if they manage to get the rear bonus or not. I have no hard rules for what skills should be used, if the characters have something that sounds plausible I let them use it.

[yammahoper]

Rasyr gave a great descript of RM melee.  Here is a way to handle when players (or foes) seek to gain the positional mod;

GM declares dificulty of mnv;  thief wanting back mod against a full plate knight might be meduim instead of hard (hard is the basic starting colum I use for this mnv), while a full plate knight trying to gain flank on a thief would be extremly hard, while gaining back whould be absurd.

Player makes the skill check with all appicaple mods (I include penalty's for low pp, hits remaining and, rarely, exh mod).  If the result is 100 or better, positional mod is gained.  If result is above 100, I add that an additional bonus.  If the result is below 100, then all attacks that round suffer a penalty equal to ammount below 100.

This rule spares having to keep minute track of position and what not.  For me, it also opened the door for greater theactrical details about melee rounds, descrbing the grappling and tossing about and breaking of furniture that occurs.

[yammahoper]

One action per phase, yes, though some could argue that HASTE would allow TWO actions per phase...

...but I do not.  I do know of exceptions that occur in the game that allows one player to have more than one action in a phase.  Two weapon combat attack may be declared to occur in two phases, say snap and normal.  In the sanp the first attack is resolved, but the player should still be allowed a normal action because the attack is really just a mnv occurring over time AND the activity required to perform the mnv has already been spent.  This allows a snap attack with a normal move/normal attack performed on the move or at the end of move.  It is a nice mnv.

[craggles]

Thanks guys - it all makes sense in my head now

...now all I have to do is to get through a session without diving into the dozen or so books every 2 minutes.

They WILL have fun - even if it kills them!

[markc]

Craggles,
 You might just want to try and cut some of the rule out right now until you get more of the rules under your belt. Also IMO just telling your players that you are going to simplify combat right now and expand it later might work well.

MDC

[craggles]

You'll be pleased to know that the first play testing with my daughters was a success!

By success, I mean that they enjoyed it.

...they all died spectacularly though! 
They kept fumbling (and rolling over 80s in the fumble table) but the lesser orcs kept rolling high and over 90s for the crits against them!   

They understand a bit about what's going on now and I kept the combat as one phase per round and initially. I didn't deal with the concept of parrying until half way through (after my youngest got killed - big time). I'll be adding the concepts of phases later as well.

I don't foresee any more questions for a while now.

Thanks for the help!

[Arioch]

Well, if they died and they enjoyed the session that's great! 

Expecially for the first levels I would stress the importance of parrying (it can really save your character's life) and try to have only few combats each session, as they've seen fighting in RM is very deadly... IMHO if you create situations in which they can use their skills to avoid combat or defeat their enemies without fighting they'll enjoy it eveno more