Topic: Combat Style: Additional Attack and other maneuvers?

[shnar]

In Combat Styles (from the Combat Companion) if you have the Additional Attack option, you get to have many attacks. Does this count for your "maneuver" for the round? Or can you do another maneuver with one or more of the attacks? For example, can you do Additional Attack, then do Sacrifice Strike on the first attack and Blocking Strike on the second?

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Making multiple attacks requires a minimum of 90% activity for the round. Most of the Specific Maneuvers specifically require 100% activity.

Additionally, on page 61 of Combat Companion, under Maneuvers Per Round, it says that normally, you cannot perform more than 1 maneuver per round. It also says that a character cannot combine the spe capabilities of multiple maneuvers.

Therefore, in regards to the Additional Attacks option, I would not allow multiple different maneuvers to be used in the different attacks.

I would allow a Specific maneuver to be used with multiple attacks (but it would apply to all attacks in a given round), so long as that maneuver did NOT specify that it required 100% activity. Please note that the modifiers for the maneuver would apply to all  attacks in a round -- just as is described in the thread with your question regarding parrying.

For example, you gave as an example the Block and the  Sacrifice Strike. The Block could not be used with multiple attacks. The Sacrifice Strike could -- the mods would act equally on all attacks.

Note: There is an option in EA #8 that allows different maneuvers to be used on different attacks when using a two weapon combo (of some sort) to get multiple attacks.

[shnar]

Hrm. It sounds like (and it's how I was thinking) that Additional Attacks isn't really treated like a Maneuver. Instead, it's just an option and then you can also do a maneuver with that option. So when you do this maneuver, A) the maneuver cannot require 100% and B) you can only do one manuever. Is this manuever done to the first attack or all attacks?

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

the mods would apply to ALL attacks...

[shnar]

The mods do, but do the positive affects as well? I.e. it would be two Sacrifice Attacks?

-shnar

[shnar]

Hey, same question with the Additional/Secondary Attack (i.e. Two Weapon Combo). If a player is using two weapons and wants to do a Sacrifice Attack, do both swings get the +OB/+Crit?

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The mods do, but do the positive affects as well? I.e. it would be two Sacrifice Attacks?

Thinking things through a bit more (and going back through my notes -- should have done this BEFORE answering in the middle of the night hehehe), I made a mistake above. Essentially, any Special Maneuver that adjusts DB is supposed to require 100% activity to perform (thus preventing multiple attacks being made with it). Looking through the Special Maneuvers in CC, that means that that comment was left off a few of the maneuvers, like both of the Sacrifice maneuvers.

Hey, same question with the Additional/Secondary Attack (i.e. Two Weapon Combo). If a player is using two weapons and wants to do a Sacrifice Attack, do both swings get the +OB/+Crit?

The same mentioned above applied to styles with additional weapons (twc styles). Only 1 attack per round when using multiple weapons and a special maneuver.

Also, in an above post, I did mention a style option in EA #8, which allows for each weapon to use a different Specific Maneuver. Check it out...

[shnar]

k, I'm still not quite entirely clear. So the Options cound as a maneuver? i.e. a player must choose either to do the 2-Weapon Attack (so two attacks at normal OB and -20 for left hand), or a Sacrifice Strike attack with only one of the weapons? Same thing then for Additional Attacks, a player must choose to either do Additional Attacks or just the one Sacrifice Strike attack?

-shnar

[Arioch]

Making multiple attacks requires a minimum of 90% activity for the round.

I could not find this statement any where inside the book 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

That would be because it is in RMC Arms Law, on page 26, on the Activity Percentage Table

Multiple Attacks 1 round (i.e. TWC)   90%-100%

Combat Companion does not change the activity percentages required for things like attacks. 

[Arioch]

That would be because it is in RMC Arms Law, on page 26, on the Activity Percentage Table

Multiple Attacks 1 round (i.e. TWC)   90%-100%

Combat Companion does not change the activity percentages required for things like attacks. 

Oooh, ok! I thought that Additional Attacks simply gave you the option to make multiple attack rolls in the same round, all using the same maneuver...

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

That would be because it is in RMC Arms Law, on page 26, on the Activity Percentage Table

Multiple Attacks 1 round (i.e. TWC)   90%-100%

Combat Companion does not change the activity percentages required for things like attacks. 

Oooh, ok! I thought that Additional Attacks simply gave you the option to make multiple attack rolls in the same round, all using the same maneuver...

Several different things going on here...

1) In core RMC Arms Law, there are rules for two weapon combos, requiring separate weapon skills and so forth.

2) In the core RMC Arms Law, there is also the Activity Percentage table item that indicates that 90-100% is required for multiple attacks in one round. TWC is listed as an example, but that is only because it was the only multiple attacks allowed without a spell of some sort.

3) In CC, there is the Additional Attacks option that allows multiple attacks each round. What it does not do, is change the activity percentage requirements for multiple attacks in one round. There is also other options that allow for creating two weapon combos, again without changing activity percentage requirements.


4) There are a number of Special Maneuvers (most of them, actually) that require 100% activity to accomplish. This being the case, and the fact that multiple attacks in a round require a minimum of 90% activity, means that most of the Special Maneuvers cannot be used in conjunction with multiple attacks in a round.

Was that clearer?
 

[shnar]

Yes, I think. Does this mean that if the Maneuver doesn't require 100%, you can use it in a 2WC or Additional Attacks attack? And can you use a different maneuver with each swing?

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Partly. If it does not require 100%, you can use the move with multiple attack, but the modifiers apply to all attacks equally. That option from the EA is the only thing that allows for a character to use multiple different special maneuvers in a single round.

[shnar]

but can you use multiple same maneuvers without that option? For example, if you had 30 ranks and used Additional Attacks, could you do 3 Reverse Strikes?

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

but can you use multiple same maneuvers without that option? For example, if you had 30 ranks and used Additional Attacks, could you do 3 Reverse Strikes?

Personally, I would not allow multiple attacks with a single weapon when using any of the Special Maneuvers (with only 3 exceptions). And NEVER the same Special Maneuver multiple times in a round. And only allow the use of multiple Special Maneuvers with TWCs when the option from the EA is part of the style.

The only Special Maneuvers that I would allow to be used in combination with others (and I am leery on this as well) are the Disarm, the Fast Strike, and the Legsweep.

And in all cases, any negative modifiers to OB, DB or init last for ALL attacks for the entire round, and positive modifiers and critical mods apply only to the specific attack of the specific maneuver.

[Arioch]

Was that clearer?
 

Yes 
I was misleaded by the fact that Add. Attacks is an option and completely forgot about the extra attack % cost from RMC Arms Law

[shnar]

I'm still not clear. Let's say they are not using multiple maneuvers, just one maneuver, but do BOTH attacks get this one maneuver? For example, a character with 2Weapon Combo, can he perform a Reverse Strike with both weapons? Or what happens in our game, can that character perform Sacrifice Strike with both weapons? (I can understand why Additional Attacks may not be able to, but my players are griping that 2WC should be able to do maneuvers like that).

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I'm still not clear. Let's say they are not using multiple maneuvers, just one maneuver, but do BOTH attacks get this one maneuver? For example, a character with 2Weapon Combo, can he perform a Reverse Strike with both weapons? Or what happens in our game, can that character perform Sacrifice Strike with both weapons? (I can understand why Additional Attacks may not be able to, but my players are griping that 2WC should be able to do maneuvers like that).

You can normally only declare 1 Special Maneuver per round, period. Doing so, in most instances prevents you from making multiple attacks, period, because of the activity percentage that is required.

The main problem that your players are having, as I see it, is that they are considering each separate Special Maneuver as if it was a distinct attack, a single move.

It is NOT a single move. A round of combat is a number of swings, parries, dodges, ducks, stabs, etc... all wrapped up and handled through a single attack roll. When a character parries, is not smacking his sowrd against the foe's (though he is ACTUALLY doing this many times normally), he is fighting more defensively overall for the ENTIRE round.

When performing Special Maneuvers, they are exchanging the normal parry/swing setup to achieve a specific goal.

Or to put it another ways....

• Single Attack -- Requires 50% - 100% activity to perform; -1 OB for each -1% activity percentage used in the attack.
• Multiple Attacks (via 1 or 2 weapons) - Requires 90% - 100% activity to perform all attacks (regardless of the total number of attacks made); -1 OB for each -1% activity percentage used in the attack; OB  is based up the skill and the method used for multiple attacks.
• Special Maneuvers - Limited to 1 Special Maneuver per round; using a Special Maneuver in a given round means that a character may not make multiple attacks in the same round.
  
  • Type 1 - Requires 100% activity to perform. Cannot be performed if less than the specified activity is used.
  • Type 2 - May be performed using 50% - 100% activity; -1 to OB for every -1% activity percentage used.
• Independent Maneuvers - This style option from EA#8 allows a character with multiple attacks to perform multiple Special Maneuvers, against Multiple Foes (never against the same foe).
• Note: The above applies only to melee based attacks and Special Maneuvers. The same general guidelines apply to ranged attacks and Special Maneuvers, but with the activity percentages for those types of attacks/Maneuvers.

In short, they have to give up extra attacks in order to use a Special Maneuver, end of story. My earlier posts was trying to say that they only got 1 special maneuver per round, but that the negative mods would affect the other attacks in the same round if you allowed special maneuvers to be used with multiple attacks. I was trying to avoid a ruling, to let GMs decide how to handle it themselves.

Apparently that didn't work so well.. 

[shnar]

What they were seeing it is that sure, they were limiting themselves to one special maneuver per round, but they were executing this maneuver twice because of 2WC. I'll make sure they read this and we adjust combat accordingly.

On a side note, I'm a little confused by the "-1OB for each -1%". Does this mean if I spend 75% to make my attack, there's a -25 to my attack? And if I spend 50%, there's a -50? (But I could potentially make 2 attacks under normal rules?)

-shnar