Topic: How long do spells like Bladeturn last?

[Hurin]

Sorry for the spam, but we're about to start my new campaign and this looks rather important...

I looked in RM2 Spell Law and was trying to figure out how long spells like Bladeturn, Deflections, Dodging, etc. will last. That is to say, once you cast it, how long will it be in effect? The duration for Bladeturn is instantaneous ('-'); for Dodging it is one round. Does this mean that once a player casts Bladeturn, it is only in effect for one round? This rather limits its effectiveness (though it is still a good spell). I can't imagine it can be in effect for much longer than that... but correct me if I'm wrong. 

Cheers

[Fornitus]

 Not just one round, but one attack.

 3 attackers with swords on your mage, one bladeturn for one attack and the other two kill you.

 Better used with the range in mind.

 Hidden Mage sees friend fighting one on one and another enemy attacks the friend from behind. Mage Bladeturns the attacker behind the friend and hopefully next round is different.

[Jorik]

RMC Spell Law - page 86 has this under the section of Multiple Targets:

When casting a spell that can affect
multiple targets, the caster can concentrate
in order to hold the spell until it can be
applied to the allowed number of targets.
For instance, a spell user casting Deflections
III may be held until three missiles
have been fired at the caster and deflected.

So I guess the same applies to Deflections I and any other spell of this kind - after casting the spell, the caster can hold the spell by concentrating until it is actually used.  He can put the spell on Opportunity Action (to deflect the first missile attack against them for example), and he needs to concentrate until an attack is actually made and the spell is fired.
Seems logical to me.
Roy.

[Greyaxe]

The spell lasts untill it is consumed.  As an example i walk into a battle, and cast bladeturn.  3 rounds later I am about to be struck by a blade, Bladetrun takes effect and reduces the attack by 100.  This does make the spell powerfull.  to mitigate the efects of these types of spells I only allow one enchantment on a person at a time.

[Hurin]

The spell lasts untill it is consumed.  As an example i walk into a battle, and cast bladeturn.  3 rounds later I am about to be struck by a blade, Bladetrun takes effect and reduces the attack by 100.  This does make the spell powerfull.  to mitigate the efects of these types of spells I only allow one enchantment on a person at a time.

So you're saying it lasts essentially forever? That doesn't seem right to me.

Let's say you cast your Bladeturn I and walk into combat. Three rounds later the combat is over, and you haven't had to use it because no one has attacked you. Then two minutes later a different fight breaks out and someone attacks you. Can you still use it? How about if no one attacks you for three hours? Three days? Three years?

I guess what I'm saying is there must be SOME limit on the time, no?

[Fornitus]

 If you are going to run it where it goes off as nedded in a combat like a contingency (makes it to powerful for my liking) maybe give it a round per level of the caster.

 i.e. A 9th lvl caster casts Deflections II on a PC before charging the encampment. In the 3 rnds to get to the magicaly open wall one Deflection is used as a defender shoots at the charging PC. The other is kept for up to another 6 rnds for the fighting inside the walls.

 Good balance or what you are looking for, IMO.

[Hurin]

Yep, I was thinking the exact same thing...

I was hoping for an official ruling though, just for my own piece of mind

If you are going to run it where it goes off as nedded in a combat like a contingency (makes it to powerful for my liking) maybe give it a round per level of the caster.

 i.e. A 9th lvl caster casts Deflections II on a PC before charging the encampment. In the 3 rnds to get to the magicaly open wall one Deflection is used as a defender shoots at the charging PC. The other is kept for up to another 6 rnds for the fighting inside the walls.

 Good balance or what you are looking for, IMO.

[Greyaxe]

The spell lasts untill it is consumed.  As an example i walk into a battle, and cast bladeturn.  3 rounds later I am about to be struck by a blade, Bladetrun takes effect and reduces the attack by 100.  This does make the spell powerfull.  to mitigate the efects of these types of spells I only allow one enchantment on a person at a time.

So you're saying it lasts essentially forever? That doesn't seem right to me.

Let's say you cast your Bladeturn I and walk into combat. Three rounds later the combat is over, and you haven't had to use it because no one has attacked you. Then two minutes later a different fight breaks out and someone attacks you. Can you still use it? How about if no one attacks you for three hours? Three days? Three years?

I guess what I'm saying is there must be SOME limit on the time, no?

I limit magic sustainability to 24 hrs,,, at the stroke of midnight the spell will end.

[Archangel]

it seems to me that the spirit behind instantaneous spells is to keep as many PP in your pocket until you need them :It would suck to cast blade turn before entering into combat only to find yourself targeted by archers.
Also keep in mind the Caster has to "see" it coming (per spell law) so you can still be hit with out the spell taking effect.


 

[Dax]

Another approach:
The spell is fed by the essence around, so no PP regeneration * while there is a Bladeturn waiting.

* OK, that would only be true for casting on self.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Hurin - Here is your official ruling... 

The spells, Deflections, Bladeturn, and Aim Untrue, along with similar spells on other lists are all instantaneous spells. According to the core rules, these take 75% activity to cast. In contrast, shooting an arrow only takes 50% activity.

In order for these spells to work properly, the actual casting of the spell should be considered to only 10% activity, with the remaining 65% considered to be recovery time, which must be spent before another action may be initiated (giving a total of 75% activity). If using any of the options for quicker casting of Instantaneous spells, then the same basic breakdown should be used (10% to cast, remainder is recovery time).

Now, for these defensive spells, in RMC Spell Law, there is a note as pointed out Jorik. A caster may concentrate on these types of spells (Deflections, Bladeturn, etc), spending 50% of their activity each round and holding the effect of the spell from taking place until it is needed.

Note: Caster does not have to begin concentrating until the recovery period is over. Thus, the spells are released/targeted at will during the recovery period, but holding beyond that required Concentration.

The question then becomes "How long can a caster maintain concentration on a spell?" And the answer to that is simple. A character may normally maintain concentration for a number of rounds equal to their Self-Discipline stat (not stat bonus, their stat).

For example, a character with a SD of 90, can maintain concentration on a spell for 90 rounds (which breaks down to 15 minutes)

To extend Concentration beyond that point, a Self-Discipline based static maneuver (Medium difficulty) must be attempted. Success means that can continue to concentrate for an additional number of rounds equal to half the previous block (going back to our example, that would mean an additional 45 rounds (or 7.5 minutes)).

At the end of each block of time, another roll may be made, with the difficulty increasing one step each time, and the additional time being equal to 1/2 the previous block. So, going back to our example, at the end of the 7.5 minutes, the character may make a Hard SD roll, and if successful, he can concentrate for another 23 rounds (just under 4 minutes).

Reminder: While concentrating, the caster is using 50% of his activity each round. This means that he cannot prepare or cast any other spells, he cannot move more than 1/2 his BMR, etc.

[Hurin]

Awesome! Thanks for the clarification Rasyr.

That seems a very good way of treading a middle path between the spell being rather underpowered and way too overpowered.

Cheers

[Greyaxe]

Awesome! Thanks for the clarification Rasyr.

That seems a very good way of treading a middle path between the spell being rather underpowered and way too overpowered.

Cheers

Thanks for the official ruling, and the game mechanics for Concentration, I always used exhaustion points to determin h9w long one could concentrate

[pastaav]

Nice with a mechanic for handling concentration...yet is the halving the time interval really a good idea in practice? If you keep halving the interval the time span will pretty quick turn into one round. A character with 90 in SD will in practice be unable to hold concentration longer than 30 minutes of concentration. A character with 50 in SD will be down to one round extension after 17 minutes. In practice you give very long automatic concentration and very small chances to extend it.

My suggestion would be the folllowing:
*Automatic concentration in rounds is SD stat (not bonus) divided by ten (rounded up)
*Difficulty to maintain concentration start at routine difficulty and climbs one step at the end of each concentration interval
*extension interval stay equally long

I am too busy with studies to simulate the above rules to see how they perform, but I am very convinced that this give a more nice extension mechanics that give lesser discontinutities when you pass a time interval border.

BTW concentration and melee is not possible together...in what actual game scenarios would it make sense to hold the Bladeturn spell?

[Hurin]

One last thing before I get into that:

Rasyr: you give a good explanation of how to maintain that spell by maintaining concentration on it. My original question was more about the duration than the casting time of the spells, however; but I THINK you answered that too. Am I right in assuming that if you DON'T keep concentrating on Bladeturn, it would only last one round? Say, for example, that you didn't maintain concentration on it... you'd only be able to declare it active on a particular attacker for the next round? Is that right?

That gets me to Pastaav's question. If you DON'T maintain these spells by concentrating on them, they seem only to last one round... which does limit their effectiveness quite a bit. Personally, I don't see that as too much of a problem--giving an incoming attack a -100 is a VERY powerful ability and I don't have a problem with limiting it to one round. The spell is best when cast before combat, to avoid the first wave of enemy attacks, or when you get cornered and are trying to hold off an attacker till the cavalry can arrive. They don't seem to me to be meant to make you invulnerable, IMHO.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If you do not concentrate on them, they do not last at all. They will end the same round that it is cast. You cannot throw a bladeturn on an attack that has not happened yet (hence the section of the ruling talking about the actual amount of activity required for casting), you have to throw it on an attack that is happening (i.e. the target must be in the process of making the attack) OR you have to concentrate to hold it until you do pick a target.

This means that if you want it to affect a foe the round AFTER you cast it, then you must spend 50% of your activity on the round AFTER you cast it to hold it until you use it.

Also, since a spell is 75% activity to cast. Once that 75% activity is up, you have to begin concentrating to hold it - this will take up 15% of the 25% activity you have left for the round in which it was cast (this is figured by figuring that 50% of the remaining 25% activity is 12.5% activity, rounded up, since the core rules limits actions to a minimum of 10% -- easier to just round it)

[Hurin]

Ahhh, I see.

I actually play with a modified DnD turn sequence rather than the Rolemaster one, so this is a bit different in my game. In the DnD sequence, each player moves, casts spells and rolls on an initiative system. Highest initiative moves, casts, attacks, etc., and then then second highest goes, etc. So I think I'll just have it so that the person can cast the bladeturn and then if they are attacked by anyone else before their next turn, they can declare that attack turned. Should work pretty well.

Thanks for all the clarifications Rasyr.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

No problem