Author Topic: Speeding up RMSS Combat  (Read 4228 times)

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Offline Realm Master K

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Speeding up RMSS Combat
« on: September 15, 2008, 11:50:04 AM »
Hi all,
I am new to the forums, but have been gamemastering Rolemaster for about 7 years. I use the RMSS, School of Hard Knocks, and some of the 2nd Edition supplements. Has anyone tried using the new HARP Combat system with the RMSS to help speed up combat? The one complaint I have had from my players is the amount of time resolving combat takes with the RMSS. It seems that the HARP system is well thought out and could be used fairly easily with RMSS. Any feedback would be appreciated.

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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2008, 02:04:59 PM »
One way is to ditch the static phases.

This can be done by making snap, normal and deliberate action an init mod instead of phases.  All snap actions reciave a +10 init mod, normal actions a +0 init mod, and deliberate actions a -10 init mod.

Start your round at 40 and count down the inits, with all actions resolving on their modified init scores.  Only one init roll and much more fluid.

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Offline ToM

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2008, 06:17:22 AM »
One way is to ditch the static phases.

This can be done by making snap, normal and deliberate action an init mod instead of phases.  All snap actions reciave a +10 init mod, normal actions a +0 init mod, and deliberate actions a -10 init mod.

Start your round at 40 and count down the inits, with all actions resolving on their modified init scores.  Only one init roll and much more fluid.


Please elaborate on it. Sounds interesting, and I hate phases, too.
How this works with the "3 actions per round" limit and "the 100% activity per round" limit?
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2008, 07:49:38 AM »
One way is to ditch the static phases.

Errh...how could that speed things up? I mean surely you can't mean that the upkeep due to saying the words "time to resolve snap actions, time to resolve normal actions or time to resolve deliberate actions" would have any real impact on how long the combat round takes. An attack take equal time to execute no matter the init system.

From my point of view there are two basic ways to speed combat up...
1) use a more deadly combat system like Hack & Slash for HARP so that the combat end faster. I seriously doubt that the basic HARP system with damage caps on weapons is any faster for high level characters. The critical roll of RM is really not a time sink since it is direct table look up without any counting involved.
2) Reduce the number of possible penalties and steamline handling these. Just body hits is boring...but RM combat loose lots of speed from all the possible effect from an critical.
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2008, 08:15:25 AM »
Just a possible suggestion....

In Express Additions #3, there is a section on RM Simplified. Although this is essentially for RMC, there is a section on simplifying RM Combat that would work well for RMFRP as well.

The general gist of it is that instead of using tables for attacks and crits, you use "Damage Dice". Each weapon is assigned a size, and it uses a dice type based on the size (i.e. Tiny uses a d6, Small uses a d8, etc.).  The number of damage dice rolled depends on how well the attack is rolled.

Stuns, Bleeding and maneuver penalties are then all figured on the fly based on the number of dice used and damage rolled.

Whether or not this will speed up your combats will depend upon how quickly you can figure the damage on the fly. It also puts a larger burden on the GM to be more descriptive in describing combats (as they won't have the critical descriptions handy).




Offline yammahoper

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2008, 11:45:21 AM »
One way is to ditch the static phases.

This can be done by making snap, normal and deliberate action an init mod instead of phases.  All snap actions reciave a +10 init mod, normal actions a +0 init mod, and deliberate actions a -10 init mod.

Start your round at 40 and count down the inits, with all actions resolving on their modified init scores.  Only one init roll and much more fluid.


Please elaborate on it. Sounds interesting, and I hate phases, too.
How this works with the "3 actions per round" limit and "the 100% activity per round" limit?

Players still make their declarations using the snap, normal and deliberate rules and modifiers, figure their bonuses, and then count down the init.

This does speed up play because players will only roll one init a round.  I have seen GM's who roll init for each phase.  It also removes the guarantee that snap actions will resolve first, then normal followed by deliberate.  Example;

Quen the high elf has a Qu mod of +12.  In battle against a angry giant snapping turtle with an init mod of +3, quen rolls an 11 for init, the turtle a 3.  Quen declared a snap quickdraw and a deliberate full attack against the rampaging monster with his two hand sword.  The turtle will perform a normal full bite attack.  Quens init is 33 for the quickdraw mnv and 13 for the deliberate action.  The turtles normal action is resolves on init 6.

So the high elf will perform both his actions before the turtle even gets to make his one, though the turtle would be at full DB for parry of course.  By using an init mod for the actions rather than the phases, the static nature is removed.  No slow poke can guarantee he will go first just by declaring a snap attack.  All other rules for percentages are left just as they are for full, react and melee and press modifiers.  I have debated adding another -5 init mod to the react and melee, but I have never play tested it.  Right now, I allow a react and melee to go on any init after his init score is reached.  In the example of Quen above, a react and melee declaration would have had an init of 23 (straight init roll plus Qu mod).  On init 23, or any lower init, Quen could have declared his "attack of opportunity".

In another example, Quen wants to charge across a room and wack a mole.  He declared 20' of movement as a snap action and a press and melee normal attack.  Because of the press and melee declaration, movement penalties are halved.  Quen has a Base Rate of 94 and will run forward.  Movement is limited to 20% in the snap phase, but since 20% of quens run rate is 37.6 feet, he can close with no problem and only suffer a -10 penalty.  On init 33, he begins to move.  On init 23, he has arrived and may attack, assuming no one from init 32 to 24 has harmed him, stunned him, whatever.

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Offline jeff

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 12:08:49 PM »
I like that Yammer I also add bonus's for instantaneous spells. +10 to int.
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Offline Fidoric

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2008, 03:51:55 AM »
I think, or rather I painfully know, that react should award a penalty to initiative, as Yamma proposes. That way, a high initiative character can react to a slower one attack and strike him before he lands a blow. I have tested it in real life again a too-quick-for-me boxer. Even when fighting defensively and mainly waiting for me to attack, he ended by striking me rather than the contrary... quiet frustrating...
Now there's a plan : we go there, we blast him, we come back...
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Offline Der Graumantel

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2008, 10:19:19 AM »
I really like the snap action to take place before the the normal and the normal before the deliberate. I think it creates a sort of tactical environment for combat. RM combat ist luck driven enough, so I`m really happy to have the phases.

All I do to speed up combat is putting copies (each with a stripe on it with the abbreviation of the attacks name) of each table in three different folders (on for weapon attack tables, one for animal attacks and spell attacks and one for criticals) and laying them on my quiet big GM table so that I reduce flipping through pages and books to a minimum.

What I dislike aubout RM combat is that the different types of combat tables are in a different format, so you have to to turn your Arms Law 180? if you want to read the animal attacks. That takes time for totally no reason...
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Offline Jorik

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2008, 01:43:10 AM »
We use the combat actions table --  Have a look at:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item190

I know I plugged this in before already - but I really believe this makes life easier (and faster) at combats and not sure who is aware of it.

Roy.

Offline DangerMan

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2010, 10:21:11 AM »
Okay, old thread, but I do want to open it up, as I was just about to post one, with the exact same opening question (which none of you guys got around to answer two years ago):

Is it a good idea to use HARP rules to resolve combat sequencing, to speed up RMSS/FRP fighting?

Have anyone tried this? I guess one would use all of it, but not the action percentage system/list, but keep that part from RMSS/FRP. Any other frictions one would encounter?

We dont like the phases, we've tried it but gave up rather quickly. So, we've been making our own house rules, based in part on what we remember form the game which shall not mentioned. I think we're ready for a written, coherent set of rules now..

In a differnt thread some mentioned another system "in an old arms law" (or something) which had a list in which action was resolved on basis on type of action: spells first, then missile, movement, melee, and last spell effects. I could not find this in any of my books/PDFs. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Finally, if anyone has any tips on other systems, house rules or what ever, please step up!

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Offline markc

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2010, 11:57:53 AM »
Dangerman;
 The step by step system was in RM2 and can be found in most of those books. I remember it being in SM2 as that is the last product I looked at to answer a persons questions. I think the thread is still in the SM:P section and has a title like SM2 round  questions started by Terry T.
 
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2010, 12:49:36 PM »
I actually find the 3-stage system very effective and reasonably realistic. It can be made faster by using a card based action system. The players have action cards preprinted with their assumed actions (including some blank ones) as does the referee which are chosen before initiative is played. All participants place the action cards in thier respective phases in front of them. 

All participants determine initiative normally and reveal them in that order for each phase. If a "faster" opponent has chosen NOT to act in the same phase as a slower opponent then they may choose to "accelerate" a later action or take a different action by sacrificing an later action. Attempting either carries the -20 opportunity action penalty in addition to any phase modifier.   

Offline DangerMan

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2010, 02:57:58 PM »
sigh... ::) so.. HARP's combat rules in RMSS/FRP.. anyone? No..?
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Offline providence13

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2010, 07:49:22 PM »
DangerMan, what's the difference between RMSS/FRP and HARP; aside from the 2 sec rnd?
If you really want to speed up combat, you could use one table for similar weapon types (RMFRP main book).
I didn't dig, but I/m sure someone beat me to that.

I've dropped phases, or never used them. This makes sense for me.
100%Activity in a 6 second round, where the highest init gets to start using their %Act before everyone else. Subtract init, add to action, subtract from action to add to init.

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Offline Defendi

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2010, 11:12:04 AM »
I probably wouldn't use HARP combat in RMFRP.  What you theoretically gain in speed I think you lose in the headaches of the details not quite matching up.  I don't think HARP combat runs that much quicker if you do them both right.  Maybe that's because I've played more RMFRP, though.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2010, 08:21:54 PM »
Dangerman, I think it should work out just fine and it is something I was looking into, as well. It will be faster (each individual attack) in the sense that you don't have to make a second critical roll, and I actually like the way armor works with it, plus you have far fewer tables to deal with (so less flipping pages).
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Offline DangerMan

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2010, 02:00:53 AM »
I don't think HARP combat runs that much quicker if you do them both right.  Maybe that's because I've played more RMFRP, though.

That was what we were afraid of as well.

Dangerman, I think it should work out just fine and it is something I was looking into, as well. It will be faster (each individual attack) in the sense that you don't have to make a second critical roll, and I actually like the way armor works with it, plus you have far fewer tables to deal with (so less flipping pages).

Hmm.. We want to keep as much of RMSS/FRP as possible, including crits, armours etc. Just dont want the phases.

DangerMan, what's the difference between RMSS/FRP and HARP; aside from the 2 sec rnd?
If you really want to speed up combat, you could use one table for similar weapon types (RMFRP main book).
I didn't dig, but I/m sure someone beat me to that.

I've dropped phases, or never used them. This makes sense for me.
100%Activity in a 6 second round, where the highest init gets to start using their %Act before everyone else. Subtract init, add to action, subtract from action to add to init.

Not having played HARP, just read the RAW, I think the main difference is 10 sec rnd vs. 2 sec rnd, yes. However, from this difference follows a number of other variations, with seriuos impacts on the complexity and speed of combat, I assume.

Anyhow, we're gonna try something simialr to what you are doing, Providence. Seems like you just removed the one thing you didnt like, the phases, and kept the rest. Seems reasonable.

So we'll play it like this:

- action decalartion (but we're disussing if it should be oral or written)
- initiativ rolls
- action (here we're disussing having a two phase system, in which actions less that 50% comes first, then the rest (as in RMC?))

Our house rules on all of this were so broken, I cant wait to give this a try on monday..
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Offline providence13

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2010, 09:08:17 AM »
For the Snap Action Phase, you get a -20 penalty but go in the first Phase.
In the Deliberate Phase, you have a +10 penalty.

I balance out the bonus/penalty to be 20 pts max. Also, players are in control of how much they want to be invested.
They may borrow up to 20 pts to add to init OR subtract from init. This +/- is applied to their next maneuver/attack/SCSM..

I do have to remind them to save some %Act as they may want to cast an instant later in the round, start reloading a missile weapon after they've fired or just move to a new place for the next rounds attack.
We have almost anything be a multi-round action; not attacks or castings.
But you can start to reload at the end of the round, finish reloading in the next round, fire that same round, then start reloading again for the next rounds' attack.
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Speeding up RMSS Combat
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2010, 02:19:00 PM »
I actually find the 3-stage system very effective and reasonably realistic. It can be made faster by using a card based action system. The players have action cards preprinted with their assumed actions (including some blank ones) as does the referee which are chosen before initiative is played. All participants place the action cards in thier respective phases in front of them. 

All participants determine initiative normally and reveal them in that order for each phase. If a "faster" opponent has chosen NOT to act in the same phase as a slower opponent then they may choose to "accelerate" a later action or take a different action by sacrificing an later action. Attempting either carries the -20 opportunity action penalty in addition to any phase modifier.

Very interesting idea...I think I might want to adapt that one.
/Pa Staav