Topic: Archmage Questions

[dutch206]

OK.  Let's see if I can figure out how to say this in a way that approaches intelligible English. 

1) The Archmage profession from RMC I has a Spell list Development Cost of 2/*.
2)  The Spell list development rules in RM Classic say that in a single level, you can only develop ranks in a second list if you buy 20 ranks in the first list.
3)  If you use the optional "Everyone gets 40 DP's per level" rule (I do), that means that Archmages can only learn one list per level.
4)  This means archmages only get to develop 10 spell lists ('B' and 'D' picks in each of 10 spell lists) in their first 20 levels.  As a consolation for this, they get to develop lists from the open and closed lists of any realm.

Am I doing OK so far? 

5)  The Magedrake description says that, in order to undergo the ritual of ascencion, an Archmage must know "All arcane lists to 20th level".  I have interpreted that to mean that an archmage must know "any seven" lists to 20th level.  (Due to the fact that I own SUC and all the companions, knowing 'all' of the arcane lists would be impossible.)

So, my questions are this:

A)  Do these seven lists form the Archmage's Base lists?  (This would mean Archmages do not get to choose lists from the base lists of another profession).

B)  Since RMC I states that "Archmages are a pure spell user in all three realms", does that mean they get four extra base lists like other pure spell users?

If all of this is correct, Archmages get 10 base lists and nothing else.  Right?


(P.S.  These comments concern the RM 2 version of RMC I, as I haven't stopped by the online store yet.)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

2)  The Spell list development rules in RM Classic say that in a single level, you can only develop ranks in a second list if you buy 20 ranks in the first list.

Incorrect, the books are actually not fully clear on this point. The official ruling is that you are allowed to develop a second list so long as you successfully learn the first list.

5)  The Magedrake description says that, in order to undergo the ritual of ascencion, an Archmage must know "All arcane lists to 20th level".  I have interpreted that to mean that an archmage must know "any seven" lists to 20th level.  (Due to the fact that I own SUC and all the companions, knowing 'all' of the arcane lists would be impossible.)

The original RoCoI said the same thing about knowing all arcane lists. Therefore, that phrase should ONLY be applied to the "Arcane Lists" provided in that book, not Arcane Lists from any other book.

A)  Do these seven lists form the Archmage's Base lists?  (This would mean Archmages do not get to choose lists from the base lists of another profession).

Archmages only get to select 6 Base Lists according to the  book (the Guild Companion version of the Archmage does not make any changes to the text found in the original RM2 version of the book).

B)  Since RMC I states that "Archmages are a pure spell user in all three realms", does that mean they get four extra base lists like other pure spell users?

No.


Note: There are several options lists that a GM may select from regarding the Archmage, so the final rules may differ from the above comments based on what options may be selected.

[dutch206]

Hmmm...I guess I don't understand.  I will have to re-read the section on spell list acquisition.  I totally didn't get that impression from my last read-through of the rules.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Hmmm...I guess I don't understand.  I will have to re-read the section on spell list acquisition.  I totally didn't get that impression from my last read-through of the rules.

Was about to respond regarding the Archmage when it hit me that you were referring to the spell list acquisition rules.

RMC Spell Law Page 19

Under section 3.1 -- in the first paragraph it states that a character may develop only 1 list at a time, and then the next paragraph says that once the first list is learned, they may start learning a second list.

Then on the next page there are 2 bullet points that talk further about this. The first saying that if a character buys 20 ranks, he doesn't have to make a spell gain roll at all.

The second says that if he fails the spell gain roll, they have the choice of spending more points to bring the number of ranks up to 20 (i.e. you had to purchase all the ranks needed to get you to 20 or you couldn't purchase any more in this level) and then starting a second list OR dumping all ranks in the first list and starting anew on a second list.

A lot of the confusion comes about because the original rules regarding development of characters. The original rules had you developing skills a level in advance (i.e. when you reached enough XP for 2nd level, you gained the skill ranks previously bought and then immediately spent your DP for 3rd level, but did not gain the ranks until you gained enough XP to make you 3rd level.

This was something that was changed in RMC. In RMC, when you reach enough XP to be 2nd level, you spend your DPs for 2nd level. Keeps it simpler, but both ICE and the RMC Team did miss the chance to reword a few things to avoid this sort of confusion.

Now, personally, I dislike the random spell acquisition rules, and don't use them. Neither will the official rules that we post for authors and GMs (regarding how we do NPCs). Those rules will use option 2.2 from the RMC Spell Law.

[Hurin]

I'm still a little confused.

I think what Dutch was referring to was the part in RM2 where it says that you can only go about learning a second spell list in a level if you buy 20 ranks in the first spell list and therefore have a 100% chance of learning the first. I can't cite chapter and verse for that, but that's the rule we've always played with, so I'm pretty sure it's in RM2 somewhere.

Now, things may have changed in RMC, but if so, I don't understand how it works. Rasyr, you seemed to imply that your players get a chance to make a spell list gain roll BEFORE they have spent all their DPs for a particular level, and if they are not successful then you give them the option of spending the rest of the DPs necessary to get to 20 ranks? I confess I don't understand that at all. Why would you allow players to roll for spell list acquisition before they've spent all their DPs for that level? That's like giving them a free shot at a spell list... why would anyone not do that every level? I mean, players could even just buy one rank and take a roll before spending the rest of their DPs... essentially, they get an almost completely free shot at learning a spell list every level?

Sorry if I am confusing, but the new system doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

What I've always done as GM is give the characters a choice each level:

1. Put less than 20 ranks into learning a spell list. This means you have to roll to see if you get your list, and can only develop one list that level.

2. Put 20 ranks into learning one list and more into another. This means you get the first list automatically and can roll for a second one.

Cheers

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Note that as I said before, RM2 did level development differently than RMC does. That required some changes in interpreting how the rules work because some of the RM2 rules were designed around the spending of DPs a level before you actually got the benefits of those spent DPs.

In RM2, you spent your DPs for 3rd level once you made 2nd level, but you did not get those ranks (and/or spell lists) until you actually hit 3rd level. In RMC, when you reach second level, you purchase your ranks for 2nd level, and you get the ranks when you buy them. One such change in interpretation is in how the core spell list acquisition rules work.

The current rules are not the same as the RM2 rules.

Here is a synopsis of how they currently work (quoted from the thread in which they were first posted as a ruling/interpretation of the rules):

Core Rules

• You may only learn one portion of a list at a time.
  
  
• If your first attempt in a given level is successful, you may attempt to learn a second spell list portion (on a different list, or a higher portion of the list just learned). The core rules do not put any limitations on the number of ranks that must be purchased to allow this.
  
  
• If your first attempt in a given level is unsuccessful, you may attempt to learn a second (different) spell list portion (on a different list than the first, but doing so loses the ranks in the first spell list portion attempted.
  
  
• If you first attempt is unsuccessful, you may purchase more ranks in the same portion, but only if you can bring your total up to 20 ranks, which means you may learn the list automatically.
  
  
• If you purchase 20 ranks in a list, you automatically learn that portion of the spell list (no roll required), and may start purchasing ranks on a second list portion.
  
  
• Although it is not explicitly and clearly stated in the rule, a character may only purchase ranks in 2 different list portions per level. The core rules do say that only one list may be learned, and then it says that there is an exception. However, the way that the exceptions are worded, the character is allowed to attempt to learn a second list portion regardless of the outcome of the attempt to learn the first list portion.
  
  
• Each block of development points is considered a separate "level" for the purpose of learning spell lists. Just as each block of development points also counts separately for how many ranks may be purchased in a given skill. This means that Adolescent and Apprenticeship are fully considered to be separate levels for the learning of spell lists.
  
  

[Hurin]

Ok, I get how it works now. Thanks for the clarification.

Personally, however, I think the old RM2 system makes more sense, so I'll be sticking with that.

Cheers

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

5)  The Magedrake description says that, in order to undergo the ritual of ascencion, an Archmage must know "All arcane lists to 20th level".  I have interpreted that to mean that an archmage must know "any seven" lists to 20th level.  (Due to the fact that I own SUC and all the companions, knowing 'all' of the arcane lists would be impossible.)

My reading of the text is that to become a Magedrake, you must know seven Arcane spell lists to 20th level. When Mark Colborn wrote RoCo I, there were only seven Arcane lists, so "all" and "seven" were interchangeable words.

Regarding base lists for an Archmage, there are multiple means of selecting them. I don't believe that it was ever the intention that Archmages get all the RoCo arcane spell lists as base lists - with certain of the optional spell list picks, they could access the spell lists at a higher DP cost.

B)  Since RMC I states that "Archmages are a pure spell user in all three realms", does that mean they get four extra base lists like other pure spell users?

Almost certainly, but that's where I'd put the foot down and insist that the four additional lists be Open and Closed lists.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

B)  Since RMC I states that "Archmages are a pure spell user in all three realms", does that mean they get four extra base lists like other pure spell users?

Almost certainly, but that's where I'd put the foot down and insist that the four additional lists be Open and Closed lists.

Actually it says

The development costs for the Archmage are similar both to the Sorcerer and the Mystic with the chief exception being that his costs for learning spell lists are twice normal for a pure spell user. However, the Archmage is never in a ?different? realm; he operates as a pure spell user in all three realms.

The description compares the Archmage to the various Hybrid casters (who do not get to select 4 additional base lists).

It then says that he "operates as" a pure user in all three realms. To me, this means that the limit to which he may learn spells (i.e. the highest level a list is known to -- for Pures this is 20th level for both Open & Closed) would be the same as a Pure spell user, not that he gets 4 more base lists.

I would say that if you give 4 additional Base Lists, then you should restrict the highest level of Open and Closed lists to be the same as Hybrids (10th level on both). And as Nick says, limit those 4 additional lists to just Open and Closed lists.

[dutch206]

If I may respectfully disagree, Rolemaster Classic, as printed, does have something to say on this subject.  Spell Law Classic pages 19-21 and Character Law Classic pages 83-84 have the exact same wording:

If a character is able to allocate development
points for a total of 20 skill ranks
with a list (insuring its gain), he learns the
list immediately and may spend DP to
develop skill ranks for a second spell list.
He will ?learn? the appropriate portion of
the first list and be entitled to make a Spell
Gain Roll for the second.
If a character, after making an unsuccessful
Spell Gain Roll, wishes to begin the
study of another list, he may do so, but he
forfeits all skill ranks developed for the first
spell list. Such skill ranks may be neither
transferred nor retained if the character
wishes to switch his efforts to some other
spell list. He may, if he has enough development
points, allocate development points to
bring the skill rank total with the first list to
20 and then begin to develop skill ranks for
the second as described above.

From the example on ChL pp83-84:

Note: Before making a new roll at the
next level, you may spend DP to buy
more ranks. If you purchase 20 ranks,
you automatically gain that spell list,
and may spend DP on another, which
you then make a spell gain roll on.
Remember that you can never make
more than one spell gain roll per level.

Since none of these sections are under a title marked "optional rule", I take it to mean that these are the 'core rules' for RM Classic regarding spell list acquisition.

I repeat my claim that this means an Archmage with 40 DP's per level must spend 40 DP's before learning a second spell list.  This effectively means an Archmage can only learn 10 spell lists from levels 1-20.  (One 'B' or 'D' pick each level for 20 levels).

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

dutch -- this topic is one that has been covered before.

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=7313.msg95047#msg95047 contains the official ruling/interpretation from the previous discussion.

In short, what you quoted is accurate when taken by itself (or taken in the context of the original development rules), but the official ruling/interpretation includes not only that, but all of the other text of the section as well.

As stated, the official ruling/interpretation has been given. If you disagree with it and wish to change things then that is quite alright, but just because you disagree with with the ruling/interpretation, that does not mean it is incorrect. 

[Hurin]

Ok, maybe I'm just a bit obtuse, but I don't see how Dutch has anything wrong.

He said,

I repeat my claim that this means an Archmage with 40 DP's per level must spend 40 DP's before learning a second spell list.  This effectively means an Archmage can only learn 10 spell lists from levels 1-20.  (One 'B' or 'D' pick each level for 20 levels).

How is this wrong?

I don't really see any way in which an Archmage could learn more than one spell list a level if he only has 40 DPs.

Even if he only spends 2 dps for one rank and makes a very lucky spell gain roll, the rules pretty clearly state that you only get one spell gain roll per level unless you can hit 20 ranks in researching that list. And with 40 DPs, that is impossible for an Archmage.

What am I missing?

There's really nothing in the rules that says that if your first spell gain roll (with less than 20 ranks) is successful, you can try for another spell list... in fact, the rules seem directly to contradict this. The interpretation given above also seems to contradict the basic meaning of the words in the books. Nor do I see anything in the rules that says there is a limit of two spell gain rolls a level (and in fact the rules seem to say that there is only one).

It seems to me the way Dutch and I were interpreting it is at least as logical as the ruling above. The old way of doing things seems to make much more sense to me, so I'm going to stick to the old way of doing it.

Thanks for the input though.

Cheers

[markc]

 I think what they are saying is if you are at a level besides 1 and you have some ranks left over in a list say 15, then you buy 5 ranks and  some more in a new spell list and you make you roll. That way you would get 2 lists that level.

MDC

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

There's really nothing in the rules that says that if your first spell gain roll (with less than 20 ranks) is successful, you can try for another spell list... in fact, the rules seem directly to contradict this.

Actually, the rules contradict themselves, and as I explained above, this is leads to some confusing language in Spell Law. When that section is read as a whole, it says two different things. Here is another quote from the thread in which this is discussed before. I hope it helps

When a character expends development points to acquire skill ranks, he may attempt to study one, and only one, list of spells by developing skill ranks for that list (see below for the only exception). Characters may not develop skill ranks for a variety of lists and count on the luck of the dice to give them spells. A character must develop only one list of spells at a time.

Once he has learned a portion of that list (i.e. made a successful Spell Gain Roll), his skill ranks in that list drop to zero. Then he may begin to develop skill ranks in another list or new skill ranks for a higher level portion of the same list.
...snip for brevity. . .

• If a character is able to allocate development points for a total of 20 skill ranks with a list (insuring its gain), he learns the list immediately and may spend DP to develop skill ranks for a second spell list. He will ?learn? the appropriate portion of the first list and be entitled to make a Spell Gain Roll for the second.
  
  
• If a character, after making an unsuccessful Spell Gain Roll, wishes to begin the study of another list, he may do so, but he forfeits all skill ranks developed for the first spell list. Such skill ranks may be neither transferred nor retained if the character wishes to switch his efforts to some other spell list. He may, if he has enough development points, allocate development points to bring the skill rank total with the first list to 20 and then begin to develop skill ranks for the second as described above.

Look at what I marked in blue. That paragraph specifically mentions making the spell gain roll, and then starting another list and no where in this section of Spell Law does it ever say "the next level" or "per level" in regards to making purchases in a second list.

The section in blue is below the section in red. That makes it a viable interpretation that what is marked in blue is the "exception". The part you marked in green is one of 2 bullet points. That makes it part of a set, a smaller portion of a greater whole, and thus less likely that it alone is the "exception", especially since the other bullet point also talks about learning another list portion and it also does not state, either implicitly or explicitly, that it cannot be done during the same level advancement process.

If anything, the part I marked in purple (especially the bolded portion) implies that what it is talking about can be done during the same level advancement period.

It seems to me the way Dutch and I were interpreting it is at least as logical as the ruling above. The old way of doing things seems to make much more sense to me, so I'm going to stick to the old way of doing it.

As I was trying to say before, there is nothing wrong with your and dutch's interpretation. Just that it does not match the official interpretation of those rules.

[dutch206]

I'm really not trying to be a pain in the behind, but it seems to be a talent of mine.

This is a snippet from Optional Rule #14 on page 84 of Character Law.  It synopsizes the core rules before going on to describe the option:

In order to attempt to gain two spell lists in one level of development, the first
list must still be developed to 20 skill ranks (i.e. the primary stat bonus cannot be
applied). However, the bonus can be applied to the roll for the second list (at
least one skill rank is required).

(emphasis mine)

The way I read the rules, a 'core rules' archmage can only develop ten spell lists.  This isn't a very attractive option.  I disagree with the way you have interpreted the core rules, so I don't want to do that either.  Therefore, I have decided in favor of the 'non-random individual spell development' option.

I hope that in whatever future incarnation of Rolemaster, the whole question of random spell list acquisition is avoided.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

dutch - the whole problem is that the rules contain contradictory wording that could be read either way. ICE has chosen to make the Official Interpretation in the manner that I have indicated above after reviewing and considering ALL of the text of the section, not just cherry picked snippets.

If you, as GM, choose to interpret it differently, that is fine, and it would be official for YOUR GAME, but that won't make it official for ICE.

This whole topic was done to death in that other thread that I have been quoting from. Instead of repeating the same arguments over and over, I would recommend going and reading that other thread.

I hope that in whatever future incarnation of Rolemaster, the whole question of random spell list acquisition is avoided.

ICE already recommends using option 2.2 from RMC Spell Law and NOT use the random method. The random method is core in RMC because it was core in RM2, but ICE does not recommend it and ICE will not be using it in creating characters/NPCs for modules and other products.

[dutch206]

It's easy to understand why.  What a headache. 

[Hurin]

dutch - the whole problem is that the rules contain contradictory wording that could be read either way. ICE has chosen to make the Official Interpretation in the manner that I have indicated above after reviewing and considering ALL of the text of the section, not just cherry picked snippets.

Sorry, but I have to say I think the 'Official' interpretation does more cherry picking, along with some pretty speculative assuming as well. Really, talking about the relative importance of where the paragraph breaks begin and how the bullets are arranged is a little dubious.

The easiest interpretation (and forgive me here for invoking Ockham's razor, but I prefer the easiest interpretation) is that the text you note in blue above means that skill ranks drop to zero at the end of the levelling process. Especially if you are simplifying things in the new editions and doing away with the 'spend points in a list at this level, make your roll next level' idea, then why not simply have all casters spend all their DPs at once? That's what we always did. The idea of letting players spend some of their DPs, make a roll and THEN spend more DPs is what makes things a real mess, IMHO. I don't know of any other skill that allows this.
Would you allow characters to buy some boxes in Body Development, see if they like the rolls they get, and then decide to spend more? No, of course not, because it contradicts the basic idea behind development points and levelling. I don't see why spell lists should be different than all other skills in that regard.

It would be far better just tell them that for spell lists, as for every other skill in the game, you have to decide where to put your DPs and that that choice is final. Then the players have the choice they've always had: spend 20 for a first list and more for a chance at another, or spend less than 20 and take their chances on one list. Only one spell gain roll can be made and the plain language of the book is not contradicted. Problem solved.

Dutch has already pointed out the plain language of the basic rule: "In order to attempt to gain two spell lists in one level of development, the first list must still be developed to 20 skill ranks (i.e. the primary stat bonus cannot be applied). However, the bonus can be applied to the roll for the second list (at
least one skill rank is required)."

I'm just going to stick with that.

This whole topic was done to death in that other thread that I have been quoting from. Instead of repeating the same arguments over and over, I would recommend going and reading that other thread.

Can you please provide a link to that whole thread? The link you provided above actually just directs you back to this thread. I would like to read the entire discussion, not some 'cherry picked' parts of it.

I would like to see the part from the preceeding quote that was 'snipped for brevity'. Can you please include that Rasyr? Thanks.

[Hurin]

I think what they are saying is if you are at a level besides 1 and you have some ranks left over in a list say 15, then you buy 5 ranks and  some more in a new spell list and you make you roll. That way you would get 2 lists that level.

MDC

Exactly. You COULD get 2 lists that level, but only if you could buy at least 21 ranks (20 for an automatic list, with no spell gain roll; 1+ for another list that you would have to roll for). But note two things:

1. An Archmage with 40 DPS can never get more than 20 ranks in a list, since each rank costs him/her 2 DPS. 40 DPs = 20 ranks. So under the system where all characters get 40 DPs, an Archmage can never get more than one spell list a level.

2. There is always only one spell gain roll per level. If you only have enough ranks for one spell list, you get one spell gain roll; if you have enough for 20 in one and a few more in another, you STILL only get one spell gain roll, since you get the first list (the one in which you have 20 ranks) automatically.

Hence, it seems, according to the plain meaning of the rules, an Archmage can never get more than one spell list a level.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Sorry, but I have to say I think the 'Official' interpretation does more cherry picking, along with some pretty speculative assuming as well.

Dutch has already pointed out the plain language of the basic rule: "In order to attempt to gain two spell lists in one level of development, the first list must still be developed to 20 skill ranks (i.e. the primary stat bonus cannot be applied). However, the bonus can be applied to the roll for the second list (at
least one skill rank is required)."

That wasn't a basic rule, it was in an option. You shouldn't look at options when trying to determine the interpretation of the core rule.

There is also the fact that that option was written with the original development methods in mind, develop methods that changed between RM2 and RMC, and that is something that must be considered as well.

For every thing dutch listed, there is another point in the text that can pointed at that says the opposite.

I'm just going to stick with that.

And that is quite alright for YOUR GAME. For the whole system, the official interpretation had to look at things overall.

Can you please provide a link to that whole thread? The link you provided above actually just directs you back to this thread. I would like to read the entire discussion, not some 'cherry picked' parts of it.

The links are actually at the top of the actual quoted portions (the links take you to the specific post being quoted).

Here is a specific link to the whole thread -- http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=6061.0


Now, we seem to be just going over the same stuff over and over again. That is not productive.The Official Interpretation has been given. You and dutch disagree with it as is your right. No problem.

Almost every argument you guys have made has already been done and fully responded to in that other thread. So, I am going to lock this thread. If you come up with a new question/point for discussion/argument to make, feel free to start a new thread regarding it. But there is no need to rehash the same arguments yet another time please.