Topic: Armor penalty and attacks

[bocklin]

A quick question for those HARP experts here:

By a strict reading of the armor penalty system, I get the impression that the Max or Min penalty apply to all skills with Ag and Qu as a base ability. Does that include weapon skills? So that a perfectly trained full-plate wearing knight would get a whoppy malus to his attacks?

Or is it only to maneuver skills implying movement (e.g. jump, tumble, etc.)

Thanks in advance for your help with this.

Cheers,
Bocklin

[masque1223]

Everything.

[bocklin]

Thanks.

Tough, but interesting. Still learning the intricacies of HARP...

[Mormegil]

It's one of the things I don't like about HARP - it means you virtually have to use the martial law armour based crit modifiers to give an incentive to use heavy armour.

It's quite common though. Ars Magica is the same (fighting from horseback removes the penalty making a knight on a warhorse pretty deadly). DnD also reduced movement rates so you ended up with a bunch of spring attacking leather armour guys dancing around the plate guys.

The other way of looking at it is that it gives characters a reason to carry another suit of armour on a packhorse - they wear leather day to day but put on plate when they know that they're up against a major foe.

[Pat]

The group I'm in were exited by Martial Law Improved and Master work armour for just this reason. All of a sudden a plate mail character goes from a minimum penalty of -20 to just -10 for wearing Master work armour.

It's also reasonable inexpensive (at least it is when measured against magic items) at 10x the base cost and you get +10 to DB as well.

[Arioch]

It's one of the things I don't like about HARP - it means you virtually have to use the martial law armour based crit modifiers to give an incentive to use heavy armour.

It's quite common though. Ars Magica is the same (fighting from horseback removes the penalty making a knight on a warhorse pretty deadly). DnD also reduced movement rates so you ended up with a bunch of spring attacking leather armour guys dancing around the plate guys.

I think that's because heavy armours are supposed to be... well, heavy 
Do you think that they shouldn't hinder movement/actions in any way?

[Fidoric]

I think the system works well that way. After all, wearing a full plate for a fully trained character only entails a -20 malus. Considering that your average knight is probably between level 5 and 7, it is not too large a penalty. But fighting with armor is definitively more difficult than without.

[masque1223]

Not to mention that the majority of heavy armor wearing characters are going to be primarily fighters and have the advantage when it comes to increasing combat skills to compensate for the maneuver penalties.

[Mormegil]

I think that's because heavy armours are supposed to be... well, heavy 
Do you think that they shouldn't hinder movement/actions in any way?

Possibly a reduction in movement rate is fine but if it impacts your OB it means that nobody wears heavy armour. You can argue about whether or not it's realistic but that's kind of silly unless you want to start agonising about everything else that's unrealistic.

I prefer the old rolemaster method (penalty to missile attacks only).

Of course it does give the GM an easy treasure idea (players will always want better armour).

[choc]

Don't forget improved workmanship or master workmanship or even some material bonus. Nonetheless there are many options to reduce the penalties.

[jasonbrisbane]

Don't forget improved workmanship or master workmanship or even some material bonus. Nonetheless there are many options to reduce the penalties.

Indeed!

And with the Masterwork, improved Material armours (In Martial Law) the penalties are reduced further, without introducing Magical items into the mix (Especially for PC's at lower levels).
And it is even better when you introduce armor peicemeal - thus you dont throw out the economy of the entire region by a suit of fullplate masterwork, etc...

[Arioch]

Possibly a reduction in movement rate is fine but if it impacts your OB it means that nobody wears heavy armour.

My players never complained so much about the OB penalty, probably because by the time they were able to afford buying a set of plate armor they were fully skilled in it.
If you're skilled enough, Plate Armor actually enhance your OB, if you compare it with leather armor:
Leather Armor (soft) gives you a +20 to DB and +0 to OB
Plate Armor gives you a +60 to DB and -20 to OB
That means that a fighter wearing leather armor must spend 40 points of his OB to have the same DB than one wearing Plate Armor. So a fighter wearing Plate will have 20 points of OB more than one wearing leather usable to attack (40 -20 of penalty), because armor protect him.

[bocklin]

Don't forget improved workmanship or master workmanship or even some material bonus. Nonetheless there are many options to reduce the penalties.

Where is that?

Coming from a (light) RMC background, I had expected something similar, but have not find it in my HARP book so far. Or is it not in the main core book?

Thanks in advance.
Bocklin

[Right Wing Wacko]

Where is that?

Coming from a (light) RMC background, I had expected something similar, but have not find it in my HARP book so far. Or is it not in the main core book?

Thanks in advance.
Bocklin

They are in Martial Law...
The book is worth owning... in my opinion.

[bocklin]

They are in Martial Law...
The book is worth owning... in my opinion.

Thanks!

Quick follow up question: are the rules (and prices!) for magic and masterwork items the same as in RMC?

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi bocklin,

Heck NO!
The prices and how to calculate them are all given in  Martial Law.

Prices of full suits of STD, IMproved and Masterwork are all given but it explains the pricing method so you can calculate for each peice of armour (improved soft leather helm, masterwork superior steel bracer, etc)