Topic: Two-weapon combo (CAUTION LENGHY)

[Dreven1]

I have multiple questions about two-weapon combo attacks/parries/blocks

I have always had issues with the negatives/bonuses that someone with two-weapon combo can use vs. 1 opponent, vs. 2 opponents and vs. 3 or more opponents.

I also want to know what negatives there are for off-hand (if you exclude ambidexterity).
And want to know what negatives there are for second opponent, third opponent, etc?

Player 1 has a character X with +100 in Broadsword (main hand), +100 in short sword, and +100 in two-weapon combo for Broadsword/Short sword (fully proficient), he also has a +20 DB.

X attacks NPC 1 with a +100 Broadsword and a +25 shield and has +25 DB.

If X attacks NPC 1 and uses a FULL attack, NPC 1 uses a FULL parry including shield and all DB, what are the total numbers for X?s attacks? (and including the ?shield bonus? for using a shield to full parry with)

If X attacks NPC 1 and uses a HALF attack / HALF parry and NPC 1 uses a FULL attack, what are the total numbers for X?s attacks and NPC 1?s attacks?

If X attacks NPC 1 and uses a HALF attack / Half Parry and NPC 1 uses a HALF attack / HALF parry, what are the total numbers for X?s attacks and for NPC 1?s attacks?

If X uses a FULL Parry and NPC 1 uses a FULL attack what are the numbers?

If X uses a FULL parry and NPC 1 uses a HALF attack / HALF parry, what are the numbers?

Ok, now? I think that covers the full gambit of attacks and parries for a 1-on-1 fight.

Here come the complicated questions?

X again enters a fight. This time there are TWO opponents?
NPC 1 has the same stats as above.
NPC 2 has a +50 with Broadsword and a +50 with Short sword and +20 DB.

What are the numbers for the attacks / defenses IF:
X attacks NPC 1 and NPC 2 with a FULL attack each and NPC 1 and NPC 2 issue a FULL PARRY for the incoming attacks?

X attacks NPC 1 and NPC 2 with a HALF Attack / Half Parry each.  NPC 1 and NPC 2 issue HALF attacks also? what are all the OB?s and DB?s for this scenario?

X attacks NPC 1 and NPC 2 with HALF Attacks / HALF Parries each and NPC 1 and NPC 2 issue FULL attacks.  What are the OB?s and DB?s for this scenario?

X attacks NPC 1 and NPC 2 with HALF Attacks / HALF Parries and then NPC 1 issues a FULL attack and NPC 2 issues a FULL parry? What are all the OB?s and DB?s? 

X then issues a FULL parry for both attacks coming in. NPC 1 and NPC 2 both issue full attacks? what are the numbers?

With two-weapon combo can you Parry 1 opponent and parry a second opponent and then use DB for a third opponent?

I know this is lengthy but I have had numerous arguments/debats with my players on all the different numbers for these scenarios.  I believe I have covered all the relevant attacks and parries for all the different numbers that we encounter.

This would help us square up exactly how powerful this skill is.  The problem, I think, is that I am either too liberal or don?t know all of the negatives to apply since we started using Two-weapon combo it seems every PC now has it.  It just seems to powerful for the DP cost.

Help explain the numbers and believe this might shed some light on exactly how this is to be used properly.  What would really be nice would be a chart to show the cross-index?ed numbers for each scenario ? this has ALWAYS been a point of vast confusion whenever we try to pit someone with two weapon combo against different opponents doing different combinations of parries and attacks.
I don?t even know if I included all of the combinations that could happen in these scenarios!?!?

  Thank you if someone could take the time to explain this thoroughly!!!! 

Dreven

[Usdrothek]

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=3223.0

This thread should sort out your problems

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Instead of listing the different OBs and DBs for each character for each situation, I will just give them the once for the PC. The same principles apply to anybody using Two Weapon Combo.

Character X
Offensive Bonuses

Note: we are going to presume that the character has the same number of skill ranks (or less) than the number of skill ranks in either of the two weapon skills. His TWC skill total could actually be higher, but the number of skill ranks MUST be equal or less!

Full Attack against a single foe
Broadsword = 100 OB
Short Sword = 80 OB (twc skill bonus - 20 [off-hand])
DB = 20

Parrying
Note: When Parrying, you do not have to do HALF or FULL parry. You can put ANY portion of OB to your DB. However,  for a Two Weapon Combo, this comes off your TWC skill bonus, and thus changes the OB for BOTH weapons by an equal amount.

Example: you want to increase DB by 35 points, then that 35 points comes off BOTH attacks!!!!

Broadsword = 65 OB (100 [twc skill] - 35 [parry])
Short Sword = 45 OB (100 [twc skill] - 35 [parry] - 20 [off-hand])
DB = 55 (20 [normal] + 35 [parry])

Full Parry
Note: When making a full parry, you also get the parrying weapon's shielding bonus (for most all one-handed weapons this is a +5). Also, when doing a full parry, you still make an attack roll because there is always the chance that you or your foe will have some sort of luck (be it good or bad) that allows you to damage him.

Broadsword = 0 OB
Short Sword = -20 OB (0 OB - 20 [off-hand])
DB = 130 (20 [normal DB + 100 [twc skill/parry] + 5 [weapon shielding bonus for broadsword] + 5 [weapon shielding bonus for short sword])

Now, the above is all against a single foe. If the character were attacking/parrying against 2 foe, you would subtract another 20 from both attacks and each foe would ONLY receive 1 attack each (2 attacks total). This -20 would allow apply towards parrying multiple foes as well.

Thus parrying both foes with 50 points from OB would give you the following:

Broadsword =  30 OB (100 [twc skill] - 20 [two foes] - 50 [parry]) against 1 foe
Short Sword = 10 OB (100 [twc skill] - 20 [two foes] - 20 [off-hand] - 50 [parry]) against 1 foe
DB = 70 (20 [normal DB] + 50 [parry]) This DB applies against both foes because the character attacked both foes.

Without parrying, his OBs and DB against 2 foes would be as follows

Broadsword = 80 OB (100 [twc skill] - 20 [2 foes]) -- attack is against one of the two foes
Short Sword = 60 OB (100 [twc skill] - 20 [2 foes] - 20 [off-hand]) -- attack is against the other of the two foes
DB = 20 (against ALL foes)

With two-weapon combo can you Parry 1 opponent and parry a second opponent and then use DB for a third opponent?

The character's base DB applies against ALL attacks, regardless of how many foes are being faced.

Character X's normal DB of 20 would apply against any and all foes attacking him regardless of how many are attacking him.

NPC 1 -- Broadsword and a shield -- Now, he could parry against 1 foe, and use his shield's bonus against a different foe (the base 25 DB he has would also apply against all foes) if he wanted. So that doing a full parry he could have a DB of 130 (25 base + 100 parry + 5 weapon shielding bonus) against 1 foe, while having a total DB of 50 (25 base + 25 shield) against another foe.

Parrying bonuses to DB may only be applied against foes that you are attacking (i.e. you cannot attack 1 foe and then parry against another) (RMFRP page 212).

I know this is lengthy but I have had numerous arguments/debats with my players on all the different numbers for these scenarios.  I believe I have covered all the relevant attacks and parries for all the different numbers that we encounter.

This would help us square up exactly how powerful this skill is.  The problem, I think, is that I am either too liberal or don?t know all of the negatives to apply since we started using Two-weapon combo it seems every PC now has it.  It just seems to powerful for the DP cost.

DP Cost -- The players should be purchasing at least 3 different skills here. One skill for each of the two weapons, and then one skill for the weapons in combination. Even if using the same weapon in each hand, they have to learn the weapon skill separately for each hand.

Why don't you tell us how you have been applying/using the skill. This way we could point out mis-interpretations (which would be easier than trying to fully describe the skill from scratch.. hehe)

I suspect that your biggest misconception is that you are allowing the reduction of both OBs to be applied to DB (i.e. doing a HALF parry with OBs of 100 & 80 adding 80 to DB and resulting in OBs of 50 and 40 instead of only adding 50 to DB and having resulting OBs of  50 & 30 respectively). That seems to be the biggest misconception that folks tend to have.

Help explain the numbers and believe this might shed some light on exactly how this is to be used properly.  What would really be nice would be a chart to show the cross-index?ed numbers for each scenario ? this has ALWAYS been a point of vast confusion whenever we try to pit someone with two weapon combo against different opponents doing different combinations of parries and attacks.
I don?t even know if I included all of the combinations that could happen in these scenarios!?!?

  Thank you if someone could take the time to explain this thoroughly!!!! 

The problem with a chart is that not everybody would have the same OB, and the shifting of OB to DB is not limited to HALF or FULL. Any amount of OB may be shifted to DB.

The thing to remember is that when shifting OB to DB, the full amount shifted comes off BOTH OBs equally.

[Dreven1]

Example: you want to increase DB by 35 points, then that 35 points comes off BOTH attacks!!!!

Broadsword = 65 OB (100 [twc skill] - 35 [parry])
Short Sword = 45 OB (100 [twc skill] - 35 [parry] - 20 [off-hand])
DB = 55 (20 [normal] + 35 [parry])

Why does the Short Sword use the 100 for twc skill instead of the weapon skill bonus of 80? this is confusing to me also... I always thought you took the lesser of the two?

Broadsword = 0 OB
Short Sword = -20 OB (0 OB - 20 [off-hand])
DB = 130 (20 [normal DB + 100 [twc skill/parry] + 5 [weapon shielding bonus for broadsword] + 5 [weapon shielding bonus for short sword])

Also I thought (mistakenly) that the Parry would COMBINE the two numbers from the weapon... so a Full parry would include +100 from the Broadsword and +80 from the Short Sword giving +180 before all other modifications...

Wow... so what you are saying is that, no matter what, the Full Parry only uses ONE +100 (from the TWC skill!)  PLEASE correct me if I am wrong...

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

RMFRP page 113 (or RMSR page 162) is very clear regarding two weapon combat. Here is exactly what it says:

Two-weapon Combat
This skill allows a combatant to fight with two weapons simultaneously. He is allowed to make 2 weapon attacks for each melee attack action, and may engage two opponents providing neither opponent is receiving any positional combat modifiers for their OB (e.g., If either opponent is receiving +15 for Flank Attack or +20 for Rear Attack the individual cannot attack both opponents in the same round).

Two Weapon Fighting skill must be developed for each individual two-weapon combination (e.g., shortsword/handaxe, rapier/dagger, etc.). A character's skill rank with a two-weapon combination may not exceed his skill rank of either of the individual weapons (e.g., if a Fighter has 5 skill ranks with a dagger and 9 skill ranks with a short sword, he may only have 5 skill ranks with his short sword/dagger two-weapon combination). The OB for each weapon attack is equal to the skill bonus for the Two Weapon Fighting skill for the combination of those two weapons.

Against 1 Opponent: There is no negative attack modification against one opponent.

Against 2 Opponents: There is -20 modification to both attacks.

Parrying: The user must reduce both weapon OBs by the same amount (i.e., the amount of his parry). Against one opponent, the user increases his DB by the amount of his parry. Against two opponents, the amount of his parry must be split between the two opponents as the user sees fit.

Using the off-hand: Each weapon combination is considered to have been developed for each specific weapon in a specific hand. For example, a Rogue trained in a rapier/dagger combination might have decided to use the rapier left-handed and the dagger in his right. Switching either weapon to the other hand incurs the normal -20 penalty for use with the off-hand.

Hmm... in looking closer, it appears that I made a couple of errors in my earlier response. Most of my errors come from not properly and fully reading the new versions, thinking it worked like the TWC skill from RM2's Rolemaster Companion II worked.

My errors were as follows:

1) The off-hand weapon does NOT automatically get a -20 modifier.

If you learn to use a dagger in your left hand and broadsword in your right, and then  learn twc for that combination (dagger in left, broadsword in right), then there is no -20 applied to either weapon. However, if you change which hands that the weapon are in, then you get a -20 to both weapons for them being in the wrong hands.

1) When Parrying multiple foes the amount moved from OB to DB is NOT applied against both foes, the player must divide the DB from the parry between the two.

If your TWC OB is 100, and you move 50 of that to DB, while both weapons are reduced by 50, 50 isn't applied to DB against both foes, you have to split the DB accordingly. The player could apply 35 of the 50 against 1 foe, and the remaining 15 against the other foe.

Why does the Short Sword use the 100 for twc skill instead of the weapon skill bonus of 80? this is confusing to me also... I always thought you took the lesser of the two?

Look at the part I quoted from the rulebook. The part in bold green says that the deciding factor on how many skill ranks are in the TWC skill is based on the ranks in the weapon skills. Not the bonus.

The part in bold purple is very specific in saying that the OB for each weapon is the twc skill bonus.

Also I thought (mistakenly) that the Parry would COMBINE the two numbers from the weapon... so a Full parry would include +100 from the Broadsword and +80 from the Short Sword giving +180 before all other modifications...

Wow... so what you are saying is that, no matter what, the Full Parry only uses ONE +100 (from the TWC skill!)  PLEASE correct me if I am wrong...

The parry from each weapon is NOT counted as a separate parry!!! Even though 2 attack rolls are being made, it is only 1 skill being used. Therefore when parrying, you are reducing the bonus from that one skill (before it is made into the OB for each of the two attack rolls). This is why the OB of both attacks is reduced by the same amount as is being shifted to DB.

Having a TWC skill bonus of +100 and doing a full parry with BOTH weapons of a twc results in only 100 being added to DB, NOT 200.

And if this is against two foes, then that 100 points has to be divided between the two foes (but the player gets to decide how it is divided).

[Langthorne]

Example: you want to increase DB by 35 points, then that 35 points comes off BOTH attacks!!!!

Broadsword = 65 OB (100 [twc skill] - 35 [parry])
Short Sword = 45 OB (100 [twc skill] - 35 [parry] - 20 [off-hand])
DB = 55 (20 [normal] + 35 [parry])

Why does the Short Sword use the 100 for twc skill instead of the weapon skill bonus of 80? this is confusing to me also... I always thought you took the lesser of the two?

Although using the total bonus for TWC is the written rule, I have always played that the TWC skill limits how much of the melee weapon bonus can be used (or else the attack bonus with TWC could be higher than the weapon skill, even with the 'number of ranks' rule observed).

(that is how I play it, the official rules are detailed above)

[Fidoric]

Having a TWC skill bonus of +100 and doing a full parry with BOTH weapons of a twc results in only 100 being added to DB, NOT 200.

And if I understand correctly, with a +100 OB against two foes you will have 100-20=80 DB to split between them (the -20 coming from fighting 2 foes)

[Arioch]

And if I understand correctly, with a +100 OB against two foes you will have 100-20=80 DB to split between them (the -20 coming from fighting 2 foes)

Actually by the rules you can only parry one melee attack each round, but I think it's logical to let a character to parry attacks coming from each person he can attack.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Fidoric -- Correct, against 2 foes, they OB available to be switched to DB would only be 80 points.

Arioch -- look at my post above where I posted the description for the TWC skill. It clearly states that TWC can parry 2 foes.

However, The section of the book on combat also clearly states that you can only parry somebody you are attacking. Therefore for a person with TWC to parry 2 foes, they had to be attacking both foes as well.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I've always read it that if you are engaging two foes (i.e. applying OB to offense, or defense, or both) then you could split your OB how you wished against them. If that means to dedicate all of the ob from one weapon to attack and the other weapons OB to parry then you could do so...).

Thus if your available OB is 80 with both weapons (after deductions for engaging two foes). One could be used to attack at +80 (but no OB towards parry) and the other at +0 to attack (but +80 towards parry). Basically because even though your OB is +0 you still get to roll to attack.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

And that reading makes TWC more powerful than it is intended to be. Though, that sort of reading COULD be done through the core RM2/RMC rules regarding

That reading is also completely different than the part where it says that BOTH weapons are equally reduced by the amount used to parry. Thus, you are actually implementing your own house rule in that regard.

[Arioch]

Arioch -- look at my post above where I posted the description for the TWC skill. It clearly states that TWC can parry 2 foes.

I missed that part... I also made an HR to allow doing exactly the same thing! Lol! 

[Grinnen Baeritt]

And that reading makes TWC more powerful than it is intended to be. Though, that sort of reading COULD be done through the core RM2/RMC rules regarding

That reading is also completely different than the part where it says that BOTH weapons are equally reduced by the amount used to parry. Thus, you are actually implementing your own house rule in that regard.

Yep, a house rule. Though since it is both an expensive and restrictive skill, I think it isn't a particularly great leap in power rating.  Note I rule that using TW-Combo the parry element from a specific weapon must be versus a specific foe, not shared between them nor provide a generalised DB. Therefore, my ruling wouldn't help where the character is facing more than 2 foes. The -20 is still applied for each opponent over the first, to both Weapon OB's which I feel is penalty enough to detract from the OB available to parry.

[Dreven1]

Great inputs all!!! Some of this discussion is EXACTLY what I am experiencing and dealing with. 
Thanks for taking the time to go through this!

Its becoming more clear now. I don?t want it to be too powerful (like the house rule above for being able to use both OB and DB as separate entities...however I don?t want to be too restrictive since there are some costs associated with the purchasing of the TWC.

My big deal is now everyone makes characters with it... the basic rules make it almost too INEXPENSIVE vs. the benefits for the game system IMHO ...

I think I am going to implement the training rule on each individual hand being trained (that you have to develop the Right had AND the Left hand even with similar or exact same weapons) just to help balance it out more...

Thanks all!!! 

[markc]

Great inputs all!!! Some of this discussion is EXACTLY what I am experiencing and dealing with. 
Thanks for taking the time to go through this!

Its becoming more clear now. I donÂ’t want it to be too powerful (like the house rule above for being able to use both OB and DB as separate entities...however I donÂ’t want to be too restrictive since there are some costs associated with the purchasing of the TWC.

My big deal is now everyone makes characters with it... the basic rules make it almost too INEXPENSIVE vs. the benefits for the game system IMHO ...

I think I am going to implement the training rule on each individual hand being trained (that you have to develop the Right had AND the Left hand even with similar or exact same weapons) just to help balance it out more...

Thanks all!!! 

 I agree that if every PC is using it then it is probably too powerful. The left and right hand IMO should be in the rules and if not should most deffinatly be a house rule. [I use a different comabt system so my rules are a bit different than those on the book.] Also in my game I let people with ambidexterity talent only need to develope the skill once instead of twice or on hand and off hand. I have also changed the cost of ambidexterity talent to make it not as cheep vs other talents.

MDC

[Marc R]

Dreven, sounds like some of the stuff you were using, like the combined OB/DB stuff, may have been what was making it too powerful. Using the rules more cleanly per above may make it less of a sweet deal for the players, and that may fix any issues.

I'd say, that when you can say "All of the PCs are taking it" it usually is a sign the players are drawn to a good deal. (Players are excellent at cozying up to a ruling that gives them a really good deal.) It's probably a good idea to get suspicious when one angle draws all the PCs and carefully look to 1q2see if there's a loophole being exploited in that spot. In other words, your suspicions that something was up, that prompted you to post here, was a very good intuitive catch on your players playing to a hole, if you ever get that same feeling again, trust it.