Author Topic: Maintaining Spells beyond duration  (Read 4874 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« on: June 19, 2008, 05:36:28 AM »
Hi, been tinkering with the idea of maintaining spells to cut down book-keeping and hopefully rise playability with higher lvl characters. After last session I had a talk with one of the players and we both agreed that the extra book-keeping with regards to buff spells was not something which added to the playability.

So taking an idea from EQ2 instead of counting remaining rounds left, you use slots. That way a spell-user can maintain a number of spells on a semi-permanent basic, and that way avoid spending time calculating buff spell?s duration.

Background:
Under the character?s training he learns how to create a magical construct known as a Spell Matrix. This is not a physical construct but lies in the plane between the worlds (Astral, Ethereal, etc). The Spell Matrix is keyed to a specific user and may not be used by other spellusers. It may be detected and/or attacked by certain spells.

Basically the Spell Matrix can store spells for the user, and since its been constructed by the character its effectiveness depends on his skill (Realm stat bonus). When the matrix isn?t used it is inactive and partial hidden in the Ethereal plane. Now if spells are stored into the matrix it becomes active and forms a link between the caster, itself and the Ethereal plane (which fuels the continual energy needed). If the caster had buffed a friend there would also be a link to him. These links may open the caster up to attacks from Ritual Magic or creatures as demons.

The links may be destroyed by a cancel and/or dispel spell, and detected by detect spells. The matrix itself isn?t as easily destroyed and will not be destroyed by cancel/dispel spells.

Hard Rules:
1: The Realm stat bonus determines the maximum number of spells which can be maintained. Eg: A cleric with +8 In may maintain up to eight spells.

2: The PP used to cast the spell(s) are spend and will not be recovered until the maintained spell is canceled.

3: Only spells with a duration listed as X rounds or minutes/level may be maintained. Spell Mastery or Spell Enhancement (and similar) may not be used to modify spells to meet this requirement.

Fluffy Stuff:
Apply common sense with the spells and their description. A spell as Blur is fine n dandy in a dungeon but maybe not the best idea to show up in an inn while under the effects of a blur spell. All depending on the nature of the social company of course. Same as with a Shield spell which creates an invisible force shield in front of the character. Its invisible but its also solid which may cause some trouble for the character out of a dungeon.
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

  • Inactive
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2008, 06:35:52 AM »
I would also suggest that such spells cost at least double (or perhaps even triple) their normall PP costs (and that all PP follow your #2 above).

This will put them in a similar situation as Rune, Symbol, and Store spells, where the cost of the action spell is the same as the spell to be acted upon. Hey! Perhaps even turn this into a Spell List that get more powerful as it increases in level.

On the down side -- By implementing something like this you are making spell users much much more powerful than they every were before. Having a limited number of PP and being required to cast a spell multiple times to gain its effects over a period of time is one of the balancing factors of the system.

And with this idea, you are removing that balance....  Just something to consider....


Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2008, 07:30:24 AM »
Havn?t considered Rune, Symbol, and Store spells. Double the PP cost seems as a good idea, thanks Rasyr :)

Re: Balance, yes I am tampering with gamebalance I realize that. My hope is that the potential (mis)use is the lesser evil of the two (gamebalance vs playability). Last session the group buffed up before entering a temple under the city (casting spells as blur, shield, etc). These spells lasted 10 minutes which in RL isn?t much but ingame time is 60 rnds. This created a whole "lets hurry before the buffs wear off" mentality among my players which wasn?t very fun, as I had to keep track of how many rnds encounter A took, how many rnds moving down this hallway, etc.

So I figured, players are gonna buff up and using this method (or a revised version) would reduce the book-keeping and increase the playability.
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline Joshua24601

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 85
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 01:03:58 PM »
Kinda a neat idea... however I think it might muck up the game balance too much to be  worth-while...

Most longer lasting spells (like blur) are 10 min/l, making it so a higher level spell user has an hour or more with the spell.  These longer lasting spells aren't nearly as powerful as the short spells which must be constantly re-cast, and are typically really only useful to cast right when combat begins because they last only minutes even for a high level caster.  This is fair and appropriate, since the short length spells are so much more powerful.
But since your looking for increased length... There are spells available that can lengthen duration, along with spell mastery.  It's not too hard to triple the length of a spell, making a 10 min/level spell an hour for every two levels... these duration increase spells could even be crafted into items the PC's could buy, steal, or find.

You could also create an Auras (diablo style) spell list, that would give, long lasting, party effect spells that are relatively weak.

---------------

If you think the matrix's ideas are worth pursuing I'd make one major suggestion.  The "slots" of the matrix used by each spell should be related to the spells level and normal duration.  A low level 10 min/l spell should be more easy to cast and maintain then a high level 1 rd/l ...
A possible method:
1. Slots aren't tied only to stat bonuses, they're skill based "Matrix Slot Skill".... perhaps a skill in the power manipulation.  It would be a skill type like spell lists, where you get only one point per rank + stat bonus, and it doesn't give decreasing returns after 10 ranks.

2. Each spell you wish to maintain takes a number of slots based on it's level and normal duration... a possible formula is .. (The Spell's Level) * (1 + the steps down the time chart from 10 min/l)
so if it's a level 2 spell that's 10 min/l it is 2*1 = 2
a level 2 spell that 1 min/l 2*2 = 4
10 rounds/l 2*3 = 6
1 round/l   2*4 = 10

Thus it would be very difficult to maintain a level 20 buff that was 1 round/l (that'd be 80 slots), but possible for a high level spell user.
(note: spell mastery can't be used to alter the spells duration and change the slot cost)

3. PP costs for spells are normal, but PPs don't return (at ALL) while spells are being maintained, and drops 1 pp per hour for every 10 (or fraction there of) of slots being maintained...

4. (I assume you were already going with this) If the caster is KO, the matrix goes down.

Possible Balancing tools...
Associate another skill with it: "Matrix Mastery"... This skill would be used every time a spell was cast and applied to the matrix... Difficulty would be assigned based on the level of the spell, failure results in a spell failure roll, and loss of the spell

Maintaining spells burns hits as well as PP's... it's more physically taxing then regular spells.

A constant visible effect: magical power is visibly flowing from a spot above the magic users head (the matrix) to any one who's benefiting from spells... (making the magic user a very obvious target).

Going along with the previous one... physical attacks can temporarily destroy the matrix.  The visible spot above the casters head can be physically/magically attacked, and for each 10 hits inflicted a random slot (and thus it's spell) is shut down.  (if the Matrix Mastery skill were used, this could be rolled to attempt to maintain the matrix)
The day that our schools are well funded and the Airforce has to hold a bake sale to buy a new bomber, will be a good day!

Offline Dark Schneider

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 694
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • El único, genial e inimitable Dark Schneider.
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2008, 07:16:49 AM »
Another easier method can be used, once the spell is used you can spend PP automatically at the end of duration to begin again the count, with no new spell casting roll (not SCSM too).

I think once you have manipulated the energy and spell takes form, you should not need to do it again when spell ends, if you "feed" the spell with more energy, why should you cast it again?.

If this is used, player could say "I want to mantain the spell", then is player itself who must finish it manually, and then the GM substract PPs to player when needed. To save time by default (player says nothing about mantain it) spells are used normally, when duration ends the spell ends.

This is very usefull if you cast spell with big SCSM penalty or cast it with 'spell mastery' (that requires SCSM), maybe you want to mantain it if you casted a good spell (increased radius, time...).
See that if time is increased with SM we must use the new increased duration as base time. If time was increased using another spell in 'spell enh.' list, you should spend all the PPs again, the spell from 'spell enh.' list and the spell enhanced, if only used PPs for second one, you now use the original duration as base.

Offline yammahoper

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,858
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Nothing to see here, move along.
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2008, 10:30:18 AM »
Spell Reins spell list comes to mind as the easiest way to increase duration.

How about deconstructing a spell?  Spell mastery would allow an increase in duration, so why not let spell mastery allow a decrease in duration.  The trick here is to bring the spell down to requiring concentration, at which point it could be held almost indefinitely. 

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline mocking bird

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,202
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2008, 10:34:35 AM »
I am not fond of the matrix idea as it does essentially create a temporary magic item with little real effort of consequence.

Alternately, in Earthdawn (which seems to be cropping up a lot but the magic system is just really cool) you can use blood magic.  You sacrifice a hit point off your max (there are many fewer than in RM) and a spell lasts a year and a day.  This can be neat as there is a spell where you create a throne you can float around on but odd if you use it to give you metal wings.  

Something like this seems more 'playable' if appropriate penalties are applied - removing PP from your max as you mention - and rituals are performed.  But it would be easy to abuse considering how wide ranging spells can be.  You could further limit this by limiting what spells could be so used.  OB or DB buffs for example but those that inhibit scrying could be very useful.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline Joshua24601

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 85
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2008, 03:19:08 AM »
Just a more general note here...
This all came up because the PC's felt time pressured to do actions before the spell ended...
Thinking about it that's completely appropriate.  The spell was an entirely unnatural situation that they had to take advantage of during it's duration.  To make it relatively permanent and ergo a semi-natural situation for the PC's is to COMPLETELY change the dynamic.

How did the time pressure occur during the game?  Were the PC's doing things then constantly asking "how long did that take... how long do we have left... we need to move move move..." and things like that???

I remember reading somewhere (one of the books or a forum) that spells effects and durations (particularly longer ones) should be randomized a little.  A PC shouldn't be able to absolutely accurately predict when a spell will end or how far they'll be able to fly.. (I think the example I read had a PC crossing a lake... his fly spell was just long enough, however, to simulate small variations in spell castings, and estimation in lake size, it was suggested to modify the flight length by 10-20% negative or positive based on a hidden roll)... I see PC's under the effects of a spell in a similar way... they should hurry because the spell is going to run out... but they aren't cat buglers with stopwatches.  They should be going-going-going... oh crap the spell ran out, well whatever, keep going..

The day that our schools are well funded and the Airforce has to hold a bake sale to buy a new bomber, will be a good day!

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2008, 03:52:22 AM »
 I am guessing but I think the RMSS skill Time Sense is used to know the exzact time a spell has to function. I can also say that I ahve never used it and allways let the players know exzactly how much time was left.
 But I do remember the book saying exzactly as was quoted above and I think a game would change dramaticly if you usd thoes rules.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2008, 05:50:44 AM »
Been looking through the spell lists, and it seems that the majority of buff spells has a duration of either 1 round/lvl or 1 minute/lvl. A few has 10 minutes/level. I like to avoid the whole "chipmunks on speed with a stopwatch storming through a dungeon" feeling  ;D

Things to consider with the Spell Matrix:
1: Could make it a Talent. Minor then it can maintain stat bonus/2; Major then its full stat bonus.
2: The cost of double PP to maintain a spell beyond duration are likely to generate penalties to the character?s spell casting maneuvers (due to 25%, 50%, etc expenditure of PP). Level of spell goes in here as higher lvl spells=higher PP cost.
3: The PP isn?t recovered until the maintained spells are canceled.
4: The character becomes subject to astral attacks to a higher degree. Can use the Magic Ritual skill here to cast spells through one of the astral links formed through the Spell Matrix.
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline Dark Schneider

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 694
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • El único, genial e inimitable Dark Schneider.
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2008, 09:33:51 AM »
Quote
it was suggested to modify the flight length by 10-20% negative or positive based on a hidden roll)... I see PC's under the effects of a spell in a similar way... they should hurry because the spell is going to run out... but they aren't cat buglers with stopwatches.  They should be going-going-going... oh crap the spell ran out, well whatever, keep going..

Yes, it is good to change it, but it is good to allow renew it automatically, if not casters use spells with fear, and that is not desirable, a game where a caster is flying and fall off because it fails the 'exact spell duration check' sounds like a game where casters are stupid and clumsy, and personally I don't like that at all.

Otherwise is that player doesn't want to automatic renew the spell for saving PPs, but this could be decided at casting time. But spells like flying, shadows (to hide) and others I think usually are used in 'auto-renew' method; in this case character can make a 'time sense' check for finish it manually but using most the spell duration period, for example, you fly during 2 periods and then land, as you have used PPs for the third period, you usually want to check a 'time sense' to finish the spell near the 3rd period end time (not too near as you can pay for 4th period, more if you change the duration by a %).

Offline Joshua24601

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 85
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2008, 11:25:29 AM »
Quote
it was suggested to modify the flight length by 10-20% negative or positive based on a hidden roll)... I see PC's under the effects of a spell in a similar way... they should hurry because the spell is going to run out... but they aren't cat buglers with stopwatches.  They should be going-going-going... oh crap the spell ran out, well whatever, keep going..

Yes, it is good to change it, but it is good to allow renew it automatically, if not casters use spells with fear, and that is not desirable, a game where a caster is flying and fall off because it fails the 'exact spell duration check' sounds like a game where casters are stupid and clumsy, and personally I don't like that at all.

It's not a 'stupid or clumsy' thing... it's a 'the caster is pushing his spell to the limits' thing.  IMHO spell casting is more of an art then a science.. each spell will have subtly different results.
A caster can say "My flight spell lasts around a mile", he can NOT say "My flight spell lasts 5,280 feet".

Should the said caster try to fly over an obstacle exactly a mile long he might fail, on the other hand he might succeed with room to spare.  If the caster attempts it, he's pushing his spell to the near limits and might fail... however if he tried to cross a half a mile lake, then it would be no problem.

Should a spell require concentration to maintain (many flight spells) then it can't be recast in the air... the caster MUST land (stop concentrating) to recast the spell.  This is useful as it creates easy situations where the GM can block and control the PC's.  You can't fly across the 20 mile lake of lava surrounding the evil castle, you've got to take the guarded bridge, you can't go invisible and walk though an entire enemy camp, you have to hide every couple hundred feet and recast your invisibility spell.  If you want to go further on a spell, great!; get to a higher level or spell master it.

To make a spell, almost permanent, simply requiring pumping more PP's into it every so often is a complete change to spell balance.   Suddenly getting the higher level spell on the list that lasts longer isn't important, instead you just get more PPs to pump into that low level spell spell.  The difference between a high level caster with a 20 mile flight spell, and a low level caster with a 1 mile flight shouldn't just be the amount of PPs that have to be spent, at least, not with the current spell system.


-------------------------

Been looking through the spell lists, and it seems that the majority of buff spells has a duration of either 1 round/lvl or 1 minute/lvl. A few has 10 minutes/level. I like to avoid the whole "chipmunks on speed with a stopwatch storming through a dungeon" feeling  ;D

Spells that last either 1 round/level or 1 minute/level are ONLY supposed to last though 1 battle or short situation... they are by definition short term spells.  1 round/level spells might not even last an entire battle, and need to be recast.  These aren't persistent buff spells... transforming them into persistent buff spells is radically changing their intent and power.

Your PC's shouldn't be running around like helium huffing, pupil dilated, snack craving, nutzoids trying to get the maximum result from short term spells... short term spells are... short.  I can kinda see running around trying to get the most bang for your buck on a 10 minute/level spell, and earlier I illustrated how to extend those..

Another option might be to have your caster get the magic staff list... using that (assuming he's a moderate level) he can store a couple buffing spells on his staff... when combat begins he can release spells off his staff for 10% actions, freeing him to do other things, or even prepare non staff spells... those staff spells can even be spell mastered at the time of casting to increase their length.

Giving a caster a way to maintain buffing spells is almost making him twice as combat effective.  Example:
Round 1. 
Normal caster casts sort term (1r/l, or 1m/l) buffing spell, to help friends.
Persistent buffing caster doesn't need to cast buffs and casts attack spell (or fights)
Round 2:
Normal caster casts 2nd buffing spell.
Persistent buffing caster doesn't need to cast buffs and casts attack spell (or fights)
Round 3:
Normal caster casts 3rd and final buffing spell.
Persistent buffing caster doesn't need to cast buffs and casts attack spell (or fights)
Round 4:
Normal caster has finally casted all his buffs for combat and starts fighting.
Persistent caster says "yeah!, I got to fight for 3 rounds instead of buffing"

Yes.. the persistent caster is burning through many more PP's, however, it's TOTALLY worth it to be able to attack 3 extra rounds in combat... and, the beginning rounds are usually the most IMPORTANT rounds.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 11:31:22 AM by Joshua24601 »
The day that our schools are well funded and the Airforce has to hold a bake sale to buy a new bomber, will be a good day!

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2008, 05:19:30 PM »
[As a Moderator I would liek to remind everyone that evey game is unique and to try and not make comments that would disparage other games. I do think that your points are very valid and should be made but please keep the above in mind.]

 As a GM in my game I do like the idea of not knowing just how long a spell will last. There are many ways to explain this in game and I generally do a write up so as to explain it. Players have been known to take the skill Time Sense to be accurate in there prdiction of when a spell will end. But as I use a different combat system than standared the requires some additional bookeeping I have let the players know when thier spell ends.

 I do not think I would allow spell caster to auto renew thier spells as IMO the casters can be very powerful at higher levels even if they are not at lower levels.

 Also the ticking clock is a very good motavator for a group to get things done in a hurry. You see it all the time in movies, TV and books. But if your group likes it one way over another do it. It is your game and you can change things so your group has the most fun. But I can also say try and avoid power creep so as to prevent giving pure arms professions things to allow them to keep up. That is of course unless you want to do this.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Fornitus

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 224
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • The Frequently Deceased
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2008, 07:28:33 PM »
 Just a question....
 If this is implimented as a house rule, wouldnt that make those high lvl NPC casters all but invenciable?
 Curently, if a mid lvl party is taking out the great evil wizard, they sneek up and try to get him BEFORE he can get all his defences up. This would mean all those defences are ALWAYS UP!
 So, unless the NPC is an idiot or just incompitent the PC's have almost no chance. Even sleeping the evil mage is massivily protected in a way they currently are not.
CUTHLU FOR PRESIDENT!!
WHY CHOSE A LESSER EVIL?

or did we?

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2008, 08:31:25 PM »
 It might be but I would have to test it out. I also think it would make dispel magic a lot more common. Fighters would have anti magic swords to pierce the layers of spells thier opponets would have. And you can see how this would expand to other professions.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2008, 03:52:01 AM »
I dont know if it makes casters near invincible, they tend to have a low OB to begin with and thus cant get a high DB.

An important point (IMHO) is that if the caster runs about with buffs on all day and all night, his PP is reduced which means penalities on his spell casting. Another aspect is that having a shield spell running all day is just gonna hinder him in many ways. Its described as an invisible force shield in front of the caster, imagine trying to have dinner with a shield strapped to your chest or getting some sleep for that matter  ;) Just have to be creative with the other spells?side effects to discourage abuse.

I read all your points, and I can see both pros and cons for this houserule. As markc says, dispel magic will be a lot more common as any side will start with casting that spell in a fight. Still considering wether I want to use this houserule or not myself. Technically there are other ways of increasing duration (spell mastery, certain spell lists) so this might invalidate them. Unless its a talent, they are exceptions to begin with ;) And it may make spell casters more powerful than they already is.

Re: not knowing when spells run out I like that idea. It reminds me of the old days in Everquest when you were running through an orc camp and suddenly your invis started to wear off. Fun times ;D
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline Dark Schneider

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 694
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • El único, genial e inimitable Dark Schneider.
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2008, 07:50:48 AM »
Quote
To make a spell, almost permanent, simply requiring pumping more PP's into it every so often is a complete change to spell balance.   Suddenly getting the higher level spell on the list that lasts longer isn't important, instead you just get more PPs to pump into that low level spell spell.

Almost permanent...I don't think so, how many PPs your characters have?.
I think usually higher level spell version that lasts longer are changes like from 1 day/lvl to 1 week/lvl, so IMO is not the same, as you need to mantain the spell requisites you can't cast a spell on something and go away much time, because when spell go off you need to be into range to renew it, maybe you are worried about this but as you can see there is no problem.

For example, a basic spell as 'shield' (lvl2), it longs 1 min/lvl, so for medium ll character every you need to renew it every 10-15 min., I don't think a character wants to spend all those PPs in that spell.
My vision is different, I see it as you cast 'shield' at begin combat, and then you don't need to cast the spell again, and again...is that wrong really?. The same for 'bless' (1 min/lvl) for example, cleric cast it at begin and everyone that is inside spell range is affected until cleric stops it.

I see in films/series/literature more accurate in the sense that users cast the spells and then we never see that they cast them again, surely they see magic as me, you manioulate energy to take it form and then is an "energy flood', the spell duration says us how quickly the spell takes energy power.

So appling that for renew you need to mantain the requisites (usually range) I think most your worries are fixed.

I don't see need for increase the dispell distribution or removing spell mastery duration effect as this is not really a big change, maybe trying it...

I'd like to know some examples for that great unbalance.

Offline Joshua24601

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 85
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2008, 12:55:07 PM »
Almost permanent...I don't think so, how many PPs your characters have?.

Quite true permanent probably isn't the best word, however long lasting is.  The PP progression in RMSS/FRP is such that a PC can get relatively large amounts of PP's and could maintain a lower level spell that was 1 min/level for extremely long durations.

I see in films/series/literature more accurate in the sense that users cast the spells and then we never see that they cast them again, surely they see magic as me, you manioulate energy to take it form and then is an "energy flood', the spell duration says us how quickly the spell takes energy power.

I'm very hesitant to use literature or film as a basis for a 'realistic' system.  We rarely see a 90 minute checklist before launching an aircraft in movies, we don't see tank crews reloading their weapons after every single shot, we don't see characters stopping at gas stations every 400 miles of driving.  Entertainment uses dramatic license to skip these things because they are boring to watch.  If a certain 'grey/white wizard' has to say spell words every time he used his staff as a light source I'd be tired of hearing it, the actor would be tired of saying it, and the production company would be asking "why are we spending a $1,000 a frame, printing the film and distributing these words 15 times in the movies??"
I think it best to use film and media as inspiration for the powers, but not the logistics.

I'd like to know some examples for that great unbalance.

I gave 2 good examples of unbalance issues in my last post.
1. By being able to maintain spells (shield, blur...) a caster is free to attack or maneuver during the first rounds of combat, when he'd otherwise have to be casting spells.  Also the effects of these spells are around on round 1 of combat.
2. Spells are no longer limited by their duration, they're limited by the PP's of the caster.  The caster who can fly further without having to land to recast the spell was my previous example.
3. And finally, 1 specific example, Haste.  Imagine a level 6 PC hasted for 10 rounds, a level 12 for 30 rounds, or a level 15 for 50 rounds.... a level 20 character could likely maintain Haste X for at least 100 rounds, that's over 15 minutes.

Out of combat... for the most part, this isn't a big deal (aside from flying or invisibility examples), but in combat your giving the caster double activity on the rounds he 'maintains' spells rather then having to recast them.  That a major unbalancing issue.  It's not just giving the casters an additional 10% (for instant spells) or 90% (for normal spells) activity... it's letting the casters cast an ADDITIONAL spell during that round.  So far as I know (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no way, what-so-ever, that a caster can cast more then 1 spell in a round; ergo, allowing casters to, is a fundamental balancing change.  On top of that, they don't need to roll a SCSM to 'maintain' the spell.

If all of your party/world are casters, no big deal, but as Markc pointed out earlier, if your going to do something like this, the arms professions need a way to keep up as well, perhaps let them attack twice every couple of rounds?


Damn I'm long winded... :P
The day that our schools are well funded and the Airforce has to hold a bake sale to buy a new bomber, will be a good day!

Offline Dark Schneider

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 694
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • El único, genial e inimitable Dark Schneider.
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2008, 02:58:29 AM »
Quote
1. By being able to maintain spells (shield, blur...) a caster is free to attack or maneuver during the first rounds of combat, when he'd otherwise have to be casting spells.  Also the effects of these spells are around on round 1 of combat.

As I say, I think nobody maintain these spells since morning as prevention for instant combat, you need to use 5 PPs (2 + 3) every 10-15 min., then at mid-day (6 hours) you waste about more than 100 PPs...PPs must be saved at any cost as you can!.

Quote
2. Spells are no longer limited by their duration, they're limited by the PP's of the caster.  The caster who can fly further without having to land to recast the spell was my previous example.

Yes, that is the vision, duration is how often it takes energy...for short duration spells. But for spells like preservation and others duration is very important, as you need to be in range to renew it. So IMO this is not a big change.

Quote
3. And finally, 1 specific example, Haste.  Imagine a level 6 PC hasted for 10 rounds, a level 12 for 30 rounds, or a level 15 for 50 rounds.... a level 20 character could likely maintain Haste X for at least 100 rounds, that's over 15 minutes.

Haste has no duration, the reason, it is not allowed to increase its duration with spell mastery or spells in list 'spell enhance', as it is required the spell as duration.

Quote
Out of combat... for the most part, this isn't a big deal (aside from flying or invisibility examples), but in combat your giving the caster double activity on the rounds he 'maintains' spells rather then having to recast them.  That a major unbalancing issue.  It's not just giving the casters an additional 10% (for instant spells) or 90% (for normal spells) activity... it's letting the casters cast an ADDITIONAL spell during that round.  So far as I know (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no way, what-so-ever, that a caster can cast more then 1 spell in a round; ergo, allowing casters to, is a fundamental balancing change.  On top of that, they don't need to roll a SCSM to 'maintain' the spell.

Most combat/defense spells are instant, and you don't need to add an extra casting spell, unless all your spells are type-I (no preparation) you can cast the instant defensive/combat spells while preparing another one (90% preparation + 10% cast instant), you don't need to cast these spells at the exact momment it go off, near the end you cast them while preparing your 'lightning bolt', for example.

In any case, in our game that is not important and/or unbalance, as we allow to cast 2 spells per round with some requisites:

1) Only 1 spell can be offensive.
2) You need enough activity, of course. But if you haste you could cast 2 spells type-I (75% + 75% activity) with no problem while only 1 is offensive.

This allows interesting combination, like 'jump + fly', 'turn spell + attack spell' (so 'spell reins' list is really usefull for magical combat). We are not very agree about that automatic limit of 1 spell per round "yes-or-yes". After try, we use this rule that is balanced and it has not problems like casting many 'words' in 1 round, as only 1 offensive spell is allowed. But we want that defensive/utility spells was really usefull.
Has anyone (apart of us) the sensation that those spells are like in second plane many times?.

One example, magical combat, magician vs magician, first has 'spell reins', but second always attacks it with a type-I spell 'bolt', so it can cast any every round, adding that 2nd has much more initiative (QU), in this case magic combat is determined by initiative, and not by spells known, if I spend DPs learning defensive spells, why must be initiative more important?.
Adding that defensive spells usually takes more PPs than attack ones, the 1st magician spend its PPs earlier, the combat is finished, initiative is the winner.
With our rule, 1st could use 'turn spell', as it is instant, it could prepare and/or cast its attacks spells at the same time, there must be some advantage in spending DPs for adquiring 'spell reins' instead 'invisibility ways' in this case.

Second example, 'spell enhance' list, 'increase range' spell, we have normal and instant version, 2nd has greater lvl of course, but what is the utility of that?, you need 2 rounds in any case to cast the increased range spell. So imagine this case: you are passing a precipice using a thin bridge, using balance, passing 1 by 1, anyone can fail so a player (other than spell caster) falls off, in this situation you can't wait 2 rounds, so your only option is cast 'increase range instant + some teleport spell', as teleport spells usually has only a range of 10'. I don't see the problem at all of making these spells really usefull.

Quote
If all of your party/world are casters, no big deal, but as Markc pointed out earlier, if your going to do something like this, the arms professions need a way to keep up as well, perhaps let them attack twice every couple of rounds?

We use an improved 'combat styles' method that gives much versatility to arms, as they can be boring for players only increasing the OBs. If you are interested I can mention it here (I think I did it in another post by I am not sure).
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 03:08:24 AM by Dark Schneider »

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Spells beyond duration
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2008, 06:23:30 AM »
Quote
We use an improved 'combat styles' method that gives much versatility to arms, as they can be boring for players only increasing the OBs. If you are interested I can mention it here (I think I did it in another post by I am not sure).

I am interested in hearing more about that :)
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"