Topic: New and improved Crits and Armor

[Emaughan]

I posted this in the "Problems with Arms Law" thread but decided that thread is getting a bit long.  Plus this has more to do with a side topic that started in that thread as to how to improve armor in Arms Law.   

Ok, I've read through Combat Companion and love it.  The abbreviated combat tables are cool but do not offer much variety with crits.  So I thought about how to:
1) Increase variety of crits - as much as desired.
2) Not increase the crunch factor (it doesn't make sense to throw in a bunch of tables to an abbreviated system).
3) Allow for armor advantages using either complete armor sets or the armor by the piece.
4) Make it easier for players and GMs to keep tack of what crits/effects they have taken during combat.

Cards could do it but I wondered how I could keep the number of decks to a minimum - thanks to the new abreviated combat, the idea hit me.

Each card show 9 results for a particular area of the body.  Armors would be assigned a number for each group: -1 for Soft L., -2 for Rigid L., -3 for Chains, and -4 for plates.  For each level of crit you would have a number +0 for A, +1 for B, +2 for C, +3 for D and +4 for E.  Starting on the middle line the person then adds/subtracts based on crit and armor.  Here is a simple example to show how it would work:

1) Week hit to right arm +1 hit. 
2) Hit to right arm +2 hits.
3) Hit to right arm +4 hits.
4) Hit to right arm +5 hits. Bleeding +1 per round
5) Hit to right arm +8 hits. Bleeding +2 per round
6) Hit to rigth arm +9 hits. Bleeding +2 per round. Stunned 1 round
7) Hit to right arm +9 hits. Bleeding +3 per round. Stunned 2 rounds
8 ) Hit to right arm +12 hits. Bleeding +3 per round. Stunned for 2 rounds and at -20% for remainder of combat.
9) Hit to right arm +15 hits. Bleeding +5 per round. Stunned and unable to parry for 3 rounds. -30% for remainder of combat.

Notice line 5 is the baseline.  This is an A crit on an unarmored foe.  Now if the foe was wearing plate on his right arm, that would subtract 4 from the result and shift it to line #1,  If the foe was in Soft L. then the result would shift to line #4.  If the result was an E crit against an unarmored foe then 4 would be added moving the result to line #9.  On a foe wearing Rigid L. (-2) with a D crit (+3) the result would be line 6. 

The math is simple.  Only one deck of cards per crit catagory is needed.  Decks can be stacked to a GMs liking.  Cards can have many different results for location and leathality.  Armor helps (and is more logical) but it is not unbalacing.  It keeps the combat simple while increasing variety.  ICE gets to make a great new product that would have me preodering the product.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Suggestion..

Instead of numbering 1-9, number it from -4 to +4

Thus, you get

-4) Week hit to right arm +1 hit.
-3) Hit to right arm +2 hits.
-2) Hit to right arm +4 hits.
-1) Hit to right arm +5 hits. Bleeding +1 per round
0) Hit to right arm +8 hits. Bleeding +2 per round
+1) Hit to rigth arm +9 hits. Bleeding +2 per round. Stunned 1 round
+2) Hit to right arm +9 hits. Bleeding +3 per round. Stunned 2 rounds
+3) Hit to right arm +12 hits. Bleeding +3 per round. Stunned for 2 rounds and at -20% for remainder of combat.
+4) Hit to right arm +15 hits. Bleeding +5 per round. Stunned and unable to parry for 3 rounds. -30% for remainder of combat.

With this system, you just total the modifiers (i.e. Rigid Leather and a D crit == (-2) + (+3) = (+1)) and apply the result accordingly....

[Justin]

is the 'cards' thing a Combat Companion (RMC) thing?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

is the 'cards' thing a Combat Companion (RMC) thing?

nope -- it was an idea that came up in discussion in another thread. It doesn't actualy have anything to do with Combat Companion (the OP came up with the cards idea while discussing Combat Companion, IIRC)


Just had another thought for you...

1) create a base deck of cards as described above. This deck deals the base damage from the critical

2) Create additional cards for each crit type -- Just a single card for each critical type. This offers a damage adjustment to the base card.

OR

3) Create a set of weapon cards that ALSO adjust the base damage....

A basic critical results in base card  +  1 adjustment card (i.e. normally the weapon card). For weapons that have an extra crit (i.e. a flaming sword), you add a crit type card to the mix.

Note: This idea/suggestion is VERY VERY rough and off-the-cuff and most likely needs a lot more work...

[Emaughan]

You are right, going -4 to +4 looks more "symmetrical" and draws the eye to the baseline.

Your second post, hmmm...  I think a goal for any system in the new version of Rolemaster should be to take away some of the crunch while maintaining all the wonderfull options and variety.  I really think the card idea is the way to go on this - less paper shuffling and easy to use - but just as much, if not more, detail in the results.  The biggest problem with the card idea is how to provent "card creep" (more and more different decks of cards creating game congestion) like the problem with all those tables one deals with now in rolemaster.  I would like to see max one deck of cards per crit type.  This would still keep the number reasonable and the decks could be set on a card tray in the center of the table - each deck clearly seperate from the others.

One idea I just had to help cut the number of decks in half is the fact that cards have two sides.  All card games that I know of use only one side.  Since no covering face is needed on these cards, decks could be combined.  For example one deck could be the Puncture/Slash deck with results for punctures on one side and slashes on the other.  This would make the total number of decks needed ~7-8 and would cover all crit levels, adjust for armor plus location, and all classes of crits could be more easily included.  These decks could hold a lot of information - no table would compare, no extra role needed, and it would be easier for players/GMs to keep track of wounds.

So anyway... in your second post, how would you avoid "deck creep"? 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

In my second post, you only have 2 "decks".

1) Location Deck -  which is also the Base Damage. It is used for ALL criticals (and can be as random as one wants).

2) Type Deck - This deck is actually smaller, (consists of 2 and 3 in my last post), and gives adjustments to the damage deck. This is not random, and the card used corresponds with the attack being done.

Instead of having a single deck for each critical type, you have the Base Deck, plus 1 card (sometimes more than one card).

The only drawback is that you would have to add the damage from 2 cards together to get the total damage.

[pastaav]

In my second post, you only have 2 "decks".

The only drawback is that you would have to add the damage from 2 cards together to get the total damage.

I can't see that this is a problem in reality. Even with ordinary armslaw you must add base damage and critical damage....

[Winterknight]

Why not use "suit" as the modification to base damage/type, and keep it to one deck?  Perhaps a quick reference table that cross-indexes with the base weapon type, and gives an additional bonus by suit.  I'm assuming some kind of either elemental deck (like tarot base) or possibly even a standard playing card deck for ease of implementation by outsiders.

Example: You are wielding a broadsword.  Clubs is a bludgeon crit, spades a slash, hearts a pierce, and diamonds an additional critical of special type, if applicable.  If using a magic weapon with additional fire crits built in, you could do club - primary and secondary slash, spade - primary slash, secondary fire, heart - primary fire, secondary slash, diamond - primary and secondary fire.

Or some other clever reworking.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Winterknight -- the original poster was talking about making a special deck of cards for criticals, not using a standard playing deck to determine the damage done.

For example, according to his original post, you would have a deck for crush crits, another for slash crits, etc...

Then on each card, would be printed a location and 9 criticals for that location, and then adjustments from the base line would be made according to the armor worn on the location and the severity of the crit.

[Emaughan]

In my second post, you only have 2 "decks".

This would solve the problem of "Deck creep", although I'm still trying to figure how you would be able to account for crit class (Puncture, Slash, Crush, Heat, Cold, Electricity, Grappling, Martial Arts Sweeps, Martial Arts Strikes, Tiny, Unbalancing, Large, Super Large, and Impact), crit type (A-E), location, and armor.  Do you plan to take away all the wonderful fluf that goes into the crit tables?  I would hate to see the fluff go by the wayside.

1) Location Deck -  which is also the Base Damage. It is used for ALL criticals (and can be as random as one wants).

Ok - but how would you differentiate between a hit to the head with club vs an arrow or a lightning strike?  The results would have to be very vanilla - one size fits all damage.  I think I'm missing something.

2) Type Deck - This deck is actually smaller, (consists of 2 and 3 in my last post), and gives adjustments to the damage deck. This is not random, and the card used corresponds with the attack being done.

I'm calling for an example.  My mind is just not seeing it.  How would this work for:
1) A guy wearing mixed armor gets hit by a mace and recieves a B crush crit.
2) Player falls into a fire and takes an E heat crit, no armor.
3) A rabid squirel bits a man's ear - a C tiny crit, no armor.
4) Bob forgets that you should never run with scissors, falls and gets a D slash crit.

If you could show how your idea would work for at least a couple of the above, I would appreciate it.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Examples:

B Crush Crit --
1) Choose 2 cards. The first card is from the Basic Damage Deck (and is determined however you had in mind for that - perhaps randomly). The second Card selected is the Crush card from the Type Deck -- this is NOT random, this is determined by the crit done.

2) Determine Severity/Armor Mod (say it is a -2)

3) Read the -2 line from the Basic Damage Card. Read the damage from the -2 line from the Crush card, and combine the results to determine the total damage done.

It is exactly the same for all of the examples...

1 Basic Damage Card, which has the location. -- most likely determined in a random fashion.
1 Type Card, which is based upon the type of critical -- NOT RANDOM -- use the specific crit type

Determine which row to use, it is the same for ALL cards.

Combine the damage from both Cards to determine total damage and apply...

All cards have rows -4 to +4 just as described above.

Thus, instead of having a different deck for EACH type of critical, all criticals do a base amount of damage, and that then gets adjust by the critical type. Which row to use from the cards is determined by the Severity/Armor modifiers as previously described.

Is that making better sense now?

[Emaughan]

Being a former school teacher, I feel your pain.  The student who, no matter how many different ways you explain it, just does not get it.  Thanks for doing your best to get through my density sheilds on this one.

I'll do a recap of my idea and then what I, so far, understand of yours.

In my proposal, the player would still do an attack role using the appropiate weapon chart.  This would give base damage and crit (when applicable).  The player would then draw from the correct deck (i.e. the puncture crit deck).  Cards will have rows -4 to +4 just as described.  This system would have 6 decks with each side of the card being used.  Deck one would be Slash results on one face and Puncture results on the other.  Deck two would be Krush/Unbalancing.  Deck four Heat/Cold and etc... (Tiny would be thrown out - killer house cats are good for laughs but not very realistic).

In your system I'm still unclear if the "Base damage deck" is after a to hit role or instead of one?  Also, how would a sample base damage card read?  The base gives location but would it just give a + number of hits, or would it include stuns, bleeds, -%, and some fluff?  I don't think you would be able to include too much extra info because getting bleed results with an electrical crit would not make sense.

The second card set you state is specific to the type of critical, if so, how do you do this in one deck?  Are all 12 crit results (Punture, heat, slash, yadda yadda) included on each card, and if not, how do you keep track of which card to pull?  If all are included, even using both sides of the card, how do you fit the needed info into a card? 

Going from 6 decks to 2 decks would be great - but I still can't see it.  Please help the blind see the light.  I hope I do not end up on your "oh no, not him again" list in these forums.

Thanks

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Deck 1 - Base Damage Deck -- The selection of the card for this would work exactly like you describe in your first paragraph.

In my proposal, the player would still do an attack role using the appropiate weapon chart.  This would give base damage and crit (when applicable).  The player would then draw from the Base Damage correct deck (i.e. the puncture crit deck).  Cards will have rows -4 to +4 just as described.

The only change being what is marked in Green.

To this, we also add....

Once the Base Damage Card has been selected, we also select the card that is appropriate to the type of critical.

The same exact method is used to determine which result to use from both card as they are both laid out in the same fashion.

Base Damage Card might look like this:

-4) Week hit to right arm +1 hit.
-3) Hit to right arm +2 hits.
-2) Hit to right arm +4 hits.
-1) Hit to right arm +5 hits.
0) Hit to right arm +8 hits. Bleeding +1 per round
+1) Hit to right arm +9 hits. Bleeding +1 per round. Stunned 1 round
+2) Hit to right arm +9 hits. Bleeding +2 per round. Stunned 1 rounds
+3) Hit to right arm +12 hits. Bleeding +3 per round. Stunned for 2 rounds and at -20% for remainder of combat.
+4) Hit to right arm +15 hits. Bleeding +4 per round. Stunned and unable to parry for 2 rounds. -30% for remainder of combat.

And the Crit Type Card might look like this (for this example, the crit type is Slash):

-4) +3 hits
-3) +3 hits
-2) +3 hits
-1) +5 hits
0) +6 hits, +1 hit per round
+1) +7 hits, + 2 hits per round, +1 severity of existing stun (i.e. stun becomes stun, no parry), additional -5
+2) +8 hits, + 2 hits per round, +1 severity of existing stun, +1 stun, additional -10
+3) +9 hits, + 3 hits per round, +1 severity of existing stun, +2 stun, additional -15
+4) +10 hits, + 5 hits per round, +1 severity of existing stun, +2 stun, no parry, additional -20

So...

You roll get a 14 B crit (+1). Foe is wearing chain armor (-3) for a total adjustment of -2. This gives us the results

Hits to right arm +4 hits (Base Damage Card)
and
+3 hits (from the Crit Type: Slash card)

Which makes the attack to a total of 21 hits (14 + 4 + 3).

If the foe had been wearing no armor, the results would have been (presuming the same result on attack table of 14B) as follows (adjustment of +1 for the B crit, no adjustment for armor)

Base Damage Card:  Hit to right arm +9 hits. Bleeding +1 per round. Stunned 1 round
Crit Type (Slash) Card: +7 hits, + 2 hits per round, +1 severity of existing stun (i.e. stun becomes stun, no parry), additional -5

Gives us total damage of: 30 hits (14 + 9 + 7), bleeding 3 hits per round, 1 round of Stun, No Parry, and -5 to all actions.

Is that any clearer? 

[Emaughan]

Yes that is clear - thanks for helping me see it.

[RandalThor]

The only suggestion I can give in this is to maybe expand the +/- 4 to a +/-6 in case we get magic items that can affect this. Otherwise, sounds pretty cool and would like to see it in action.

[markc]

 The only other problem with the hit location is that no all creatures are humaniod in body type.

MDC

[croakerdogboy]

But most are either bipedal or quadrapedal. It does double the work.

[Marc R]

But most are either bipedal or quadrapedal. It does double the work.

Got a lot of Hectopods. . .2 arms, 2 legs, 2 wings, or 4 legs, 2 wings. and a bunch of serpantine shapes. (Snakes  & Worms). . .and does a substantial tail count as another limb?

I agree that in most games, most of the time bipedal/quadrapedal covers most shapes. . .but if you go through CT there are a lot of "Other" shapes.

[croakerdogboy]

True. I was thinking more realistic.

[markc]

 The guy who got me into RM in the late 90's did not have any "monsters" all human protaganist.

MDC