Topic: Extra Base Lists

[Phil]

Tucked away on p15 of RMFRP is a single line which says Pure Spell Users can pick another 4 lists as Base Lists. This sweet, innocuous little line is so demure and genteel that it couldn't stand being in the main body of the text, and so must be tucked away at the end of a paragraph in a side-bar, and is so pure and innocent that it couldn't possibly bear repetition, clarification or confirmation lest its purity and simplicity be lost for ever...

But for goodness' sake, wouldn't it be nice if just somewhere the rulebooks might deign to mention how this actually bloody works!? OK, I do see there are two Rulings on the subject:

? Pure spell users pay 3/3/3 to develop the Open and Closed lists they choose as extra base lists. [10/12/99]
? Extra Base lists may be developed as Open lists in adolescence for races that allow such. [11/3/99]

The first implies that the extra base lists come from open and closed lists, but is it only open and closed lists? What about base lists of other same-realm spell casters? Or other realm casters? At what point must these 4 lists be selected - many characters wont pick 10 lists at 1st level, so can they choose these lists at a later date? What about hybrid casters, which lists can they pick from? Or do hybrid spell-casters not count as pure casters for the purposes of this rule, and so don't get any?

I also assume that what the second ruling actually means is "any Open list developed during adolescent development for those races that allow such can be subsequently picked as one of the additional base lists, with no loss of any ranks developed during the adolescence phase".

Yours grumpily (I obviously need more coffee)

Phil

[Arioch]

RMFRP Character Law, pag16:

These lists must be chosen from the open and closed lists from that spell user's realm of power

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Please remember that it was a different company that produced that core book and mentioned it. And unfortunately, ICE has never been clear on how it should be done.

In RMC, ICE recommends that the extra Base Lists be limited to Open and Closed of the same realm, but in RMC, Base Lists are the only lists that are allowed to be learned above 20th level using the core rules..

I will try to give some guidance......

1) Hybrids do not get extra Base Lists. Caster types are Pure, Hybrid, Semi, Non. That rule says "Pure".

2) I would recommend that only Open and Closed lists from the same realm be allowed as extra Base Lists. But which lists to allow are specifically left up to the GM to determine.

3) In RMFRP, the only reason for selecting another list as a Base List would be to change its cost as none of the other benefits from having a "Base List" are any longer present in RMFRP (i.e. the ability to learn it above 20th level).

4) When a list is first learned (i.e. the first ranks are bought), that is when it must be decided whether or not it is a Base List.

5) That second ruling -- what I think it means (remember, that ruling is from the time of the old ICE) is that certain races are granted access to certain Open spell lists as part of their Adolescence training. And that, if the player wants, he may select that list to be a base list without having to repurchase those ranks again.

I should add a caveat to this. Any such adol list, if later developed as an Open list during normal development should then be disqualified as a candidate for being an extra base list.

[Phil]

Excellent clarification Mr Rasyr sir! Good job! Suggest that be taken down and used again as evidence .... I mean, for the furtherment of wisdom and enlightenment across the entire RM community.

And thanks for the CharLaw reference, I did have a flick through there so well done for being far more eagle-eyed than me. You really shouldn't respond so positively and quickly to an adult geek throwing a tantrum though, it'll only encourage me to stamp my feet even more next time

[yammahoper]

I allow additional base list to be chosen from Alchemist base list too.  The list are by no means over powered and it allows Alchemical Mentalist, Clerics, Mages and the like.  The neatest combo I saw was a Alchemist Lay Healer.

I use to allow base Illusionist list to be chosen also, because I do not use the Illusionist profession in my world.

Just some ideas.

lynn

[vroomfogle]

3) In RMFRP, the only reason for selecting another list as a Base List would be to change its cost as none of the other benefits from having a "Base List" are any longer present in RMFRP (i.e. the ability to learn it above 20th level).

In RMFRP there is an additional benefit of making a list your Base list - you benefit from a +10 to the SCSM roll vs the normal +5 if it were an Open or +0 if it were closed.

I personally allow more flexibility in the picking of additional base lists.   Players are allowed to choose from virtually any source, as long as it fits in with the concept of the character.   This most often happens with Channeling users who will pick lists based on their deity.   This could potentially be any list from any realm.

I also think allowing one to defer choosing base lists is a good idea and certainly not overpowered.   Have them pick a minimum of 6 at char creation and allow the others to be picked during the course of the game (for instance they may find they have access to a new spell list by finding a teacher).   I find this to be an important rule but I also tightly control access to lists too, so choosing all base lists at creation can be rather limiting when they find later on they have lost access to their original base lists but gained access to some new ones.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

In RMFRP there is an additional benefit of making a list your Base list - you benefit from a +10 to the SCSM roll vs the normal +5 if it were an Open or +0 if it were closed.

Good point -- I had forgotten about that.

[Temujin]

I allow additional base list to be chosen from Alchemist base list too.  The list are by no means over powered and it allows Alchemical Mentalist, Clerics, Mages and the like.  The neatest combo I saw was a Alchemist Lay Healer.

I use to allow base Illusionist list to be chosen also, because I do not use the Illusionist profession in my world.

Just some ideas.

lynn

That's something similar to what I've done in my homegame.  There's already TP for download allowing access to alchemical lists, and I kind of like the idea that other classes can do some alchemy without going through the Lord Research process which sounds a bit random and arbitrary.  I would allow characters to use TP lists as extra base provided they take the TP, including alchemist lists.

[markc]

 I also think that if you make alchemy a training package a lot more PC's will take it. And IMO it does make a lot of sense to do it by training package or as pure spell use bonus list selection.

MDC

[Dark Schneider]

Open, Closed and Evil lists can be selected for base.

[Phil]

If there are Evil lists, why no Good lists? Or Morally Indifferent Lists? Or Generally Nice but has a thing about Bad Driving lists?

All of which reminds me of a thought I had the other day. I think RM has got the "types" of magic used by different realms all wrong.

Mentalism is focused on the body and mind, so should get all the healing lists.
Essence manipulates "wild" essence, so should have the nature spells, along with the special effect spells like flying and illusion that they currently have
Channelling drags power from the gods, so they should have the big damaging "smiting" spells

Probably a comment for the house rule section, but that'd be quite an interesting way of challenging players' magical stereotypes.

[Arioch]

If there are Evil lists, why no Good lists? Or Morally Indifferent Lists? Or Generally Nice but has a thing about Bad Driving lists?

Ah, the eternal evil lists debate! 

Mentalism is focused on the body and mind, so should get all the healing lists.
Essence manipulates "wild" essence, so should have the nature spells, along with the special effect spells like flying and illusion that they currently have
Channelling drags power from the gods, so they should have the big damaging "smiting" spells

It could be a good idea, I think that this could be done quite easly, simply making the Healer a pure Mentalism user, the Ranger and Animist Essence users and then moving another couple of lists from one Realm to another...
Channeling already have "big smiting spells" IMHO and I think that's there's nothing wrong in it having also healing ones... as you said it draws power from gods, so Chan users should be able to do whatever their gods want!

[Phil]

If there are Evil lists, why no Good lists? Or Morally Indifferent Lists? Or Generally Nice but has a thing about Bad Driving lists?

Ah, the eternal evil lists debate! 

Eternal Evil lists? Oooh, now those sound really nasty!

Mentalism is focused on the body and mind, so should get all the healing lists.
Essence manipulates "wild" essence, so should have the nature spells, along with the special effect spells like flying and illusion that they currently have
Channelling drags power from the gods, so they should have the big damaging "smiting" spells

It could be a good idea

Could be? Gimme an idea point then as an incentive, and I'll try to think of something next time that definitely is a good idea

[Arioch]

Could be? Gimme an idea point then as an incentive, and I'll try to think of something next time that definitely is a good idea

I think I'll give you a laugh point as incentive instead... 

[yammahoper]

Ok, I put one idea point in your bank, at zero interest...well, actually, 100% interest...OHHHH, you know what I mean 

...well... ...I'm waiting...

lynn

[Temujin]

Open, Closed and Evil lists can be selected for base.

What do you base that on?

[Arioch]

What do you base that on?

Spell Law.
See "Evil Spell Lists" paragraph in the special spell notes section.

[Dark Schneider]

Really, I can't live without the 'matter disruption' list...

Otherwise, I think it could be a good idea begin a new thread talking about useless evil lists (and giving solutions), I my case, using essence, I see that the 'dark contacts' is not very usefull, it has a serious problem, the minor portal (class I, II and III demon) gives you a 0%, 0% and 10% to identify the item, with risks, then...what? 

If they was 10%, 20% and 30% it is better, as you can use them for many uses (information about item, person, a question) then it has some use, but a 0% has no use at all.

[vroomfogle]

I agree about Dark Contacts.   Overall I find the Identify item spells (either the Bard ones or Eveil Magician) have far too low chances.   I increase them across the board...generally doubling them (for the bard ones).   No one's used the Evil Mage ones in a while so not sure how I'd increase those.

But I don't find the Evil lists useless overall, they can be quite nasty.

[yammahoper]

Really, I can't live without the 'matter disruption' list...

Otherwise, I think it could be a good idea begin a new thread talking about useless evil lists (and giving solutions), I my case, using essence, I see that the 'dark contacts' is not very usefull, it has a serious problem, the minor portal (class I, II and III demon) gives you a 0%, 0% and 10% to identify the item, with risks, then...what? 

If they was 10%, 20% and 30% it is better, as you can use them for many uses (information about item, person, a question) then it has some use, but a 0% has no use at all.

Yep.  I penciled in the very changes you suggest on my evil list long ago.  I also allow influences to increase the chance of success.  Strangely, the most popular influence is a living sacrifice.  Silly evil.

lynn