Author Topic: Talent Law?  (Read 10396 times)

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Offline mocking bird

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2008, 01:12:21 PM »
I had a player who, with some strange combination of race & flaws wanted to play a character with 3 Blessed by War God(s)...  ::)

That is when you hit him upside the head with the book.  We do have a player that (ab)uses TL a bit, as well as d20 suppliments when we play that.  We just peep 'cheater' every now and then and it, along with calling everything dire as in weasels/aardvarks/terriers, erc, has become a running gag really.

We also require major flaws with major talents.  For example my current character is 'Blessed by the War God' but alas it is Klyssus so I also have infernal taint.  I also rolled up a mute wizard with power just for fun as a potential back.

And taking a page from DC heroes, and just common sense, you can't have a flaw that wont' come into play - like a mage with weapon breaker, weak wrists, or something similar.

But the flaws also get pretty strange - like a one armed eunich albino elf with no sense of smell.  Acutally nobody has ever taken the eunich flaw just on general principles.  But still, you can end up with a very powerful character who belongs in the circus or psych ward.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline croakerdogboy

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2008, 01:18:28 PM »
Quote
But still, you can end up with a very powerful character who belongs in the circus or psych ward.

And if played correctly is a blast.

I always make them random roll, with a one for one of equal level. I went through and made my own list. I got rid of flying and such and kept all the grittier ones that I could justify. I also added a bunch of flaws and put them all in random roll tables. If you tinker with them just a little bit they can actually add quite a bit of character to a game.
It is the fundamental theory of all the more recent American law...that the average citizen is half-witted, and hence not to be trusted to either his own devices or his own thoughts.

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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2008, 02:11:12 PM »
I played a eunich once.  An ex worshipper of Moralis, the God of Sex, pleasure and perversion.  He was snipped by the cult/church as part of a scarring rutual when excommunicated. 

In a game I almost ran once set in the Ottaman Empire, I was going to have eunich be a talent, not a flaw.

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline mathhatt

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2008, 04:05:00 AM »
I had to create a house rule that no skill could be modified by more than one talent after seeong this;

Racial training (+20 to six related skills, which were all combat oriented skills because the PC was a Vajaari Fighter), Weapon Master (everyman weapon skills), +60 mod to one skill or a +40 to one catagory (he chose +60 to broadsword).  Not a talent, but his tarining package was, of course, Weapons Master.

The result was an almost 200 OB at level one.  That was the last time I ever wanted to see that, so I adopted the "one talent rule" and the problem went away.  The real eye rolling moment for me came when I made him make some "adjustments" and he claimed to have shown restraint because he also wanted to be Blessed by War God... :-X

lynn

The War God blessing : "for now on, you shall have only one hit point, to see if you are indeed worthy of my blessing".
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2008, 08:55:34 AM »
In regards to talents, I have always followed the axion of:

Every silver lining has its own dark cloud


Essentially, there is a bad side to almost every Talent. (if the GM is clever enough).

Blessed by War God -- What makes you think you are the only one? What makes you think that the others won't come hunting for you. After all, there can be only one. (i.e.the War God blesses a bunch of people and then let's them battle it out in their own little war to see who is the most worthy).

Armored Skin (at whatever level) -- Your skin doesn't look normal. If you have AT 4, your skin is going to look tough and leathery.

And so forth....

The most powerful talents should always come with some sort of built in drawback, IMO.

I have also used the "no more than one talent per xx" before, for many of the same reasons...

Offline markc

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2008, 05:42:23 PM »
Note below is a hosue rule:
 I can say that I allways use Talent Law to create races and not for PC's to pick talents from. But I then write out the talents I want to use for a game and re-set the cost to use BO or Talent points given in RMSS/FRP.
Note the above is a house rule:

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Offline adventus

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2008, 03:54:11 PM »
Quote from:  yammahoper
The result was an almost 200 OB at level one.  That was the last time I ever wanted to see that, so I adopted the "one talent rule" and the problem went away.  The real eye rolling moment for me came when I made him make some "adjustments" and he claimed to have shown restraint because he also wanted to be Blessed by War God.

I actually had a character who had a skill likes this in a campaign I ran. If your skill is this high, you are known as one of the best in the world. You will have to deal with people who want to prove they are better than you, that you are a fraud,or they want you to teach them. You will have to deal with people stealing your weapons thinking your skill comes from a magical weapon.

I personally have no problem with talent law as written.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2008, 02:53:49 AM »
I actually had a character who had a skill likes this in a campaign I ran. If your skill is this high, you are known as one of the best in the world. You will have to deal with people who want to prove they are better than you, that you are a fraud,or they want you to teach them. You will have to deal with people stealing your weapons thinking your skill comes from a magical weapon.

Then you're not using talent law as written, as you are adding a lot of non-written flaws to your talents.
But the main problem IMHO is not having a 1st level PC with an OB of 200, is that talent prices in many cases make no sense, are totally unbalanced versus one another and seem to be distributed at random.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Skynet

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2008, 08:33:31 AM »
Essentially, there is a bad side to almost every Talent. (if the GM is clever enough).

Blessed by War God -- What makes you think you are the only one? What makes you think that the others won't come hunting for you. After all, there can be only one. (i.e.the War God blesses a bunch of people and then let's them battle it out in their own little war to see who is the most worthy).

Armored Skin (at whatever level) -- Your skin doesn't look normal. If you have AT 4, your skin is going to look tough and leathery.

It's even more easy, since this is already ingrained in the system. When you select a talent, the system let's you pay less for your ability by selecting a flaw. This way, choosing Rivals with Blessed by War God and Unique Looks with Armored Skin will do the job!

If you impose some flaws to your player because you don't like the talents they selected, I think this kind of goes against the system. Flaws shouldn't be drawbacks of talents too powerful for your game, since players are supposed to get points back by selecting them. They should be chosen normally, but with the logic you demonstrated in your example, Rasyr.

I think talents are a GREAT way to take your character somewhere else, to play someone very special. Something rich in terms of roleplaying opportunities and dramatic storytelling. But it shouldn't be used as a checklist for optimization. This is just bad "playership" (it's not even a word, but you get my meaning... you know, like sportsmanship ;)). If one of my players were trying to pull this kind of character optimization, I would redirect him to his initial concept. And if it is faithful to his concept, I would ask myself "Why, oh why, have I let some player be the best warrior in the world at 1st level?". Take your time... You'll get there. I would allow him to "boost" his fighting abilities if it were according to a great initial character concept, but not otherwise.

One could also "houserule" that no talents or flaws may be higher than minor at character creation. This should rule out the most powerful abilities.

Quote from: Nejira
And please please, include in the rules that this Talent cannot be taken by (insert specific profession/race). EG: Power which gives you Y ranks for spells choosen within your own base, open and closed realm. But nothing (in the rules) prevents an thief from learning a few spells this way. I know you cant get any base lists because as a thief you dont have any, but you can get open/closed spelllists.

This is a great example. Does he have a concept reflecting this choice? If not, it's settled. If your player can come up with something great in his background to justify his knowledge of magic, than it should be interesting to see how, dramatically speaking, it will unfold in your campaign.

Offline Joshua24601

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2008, 11:15:27 AM »
It's even more easy, since this is already ingrained in the system. When you select a talent, the system let's you pay less for your ability by selecting a flaw. This way, choosing Rivals with Blessed by War God and Unique Looks with Armored Skin will do the job!

But having different looking skin is part of the talent Tough Skin Your skin is naturally toughened... you recieve a -20 to Appearance (due to the appearance of your skin)
As a GM I wouldn't allow someone to take unusual looks with Tough Skin, they're looks are unusual DUE to their tough skin, not in addition to it...
Just as Blessed by War god would have some added drawbacks.... depending on your PC level you might have a reputation, you might be considered "Enemy" by followers of other religions... and so on... these things wouldn't be additional flaws, but intrinsic in being blessed by a war god.
Although I do agree that a PC should be made aware of what flaws are going with his talent choices and not just tackled in-game by NPCs... It's just like racial choices, a PC who insists he wants to play a Greater Orc, should be made aware that he's going to be shunned in cities, if not attacked on sight... and he DOESN'T get flaws for those disadvantages... that's part of being an orc.

Although I do have to agree... if used right, I love talents.  A couple of combat talents and a pure spell user can become a competent swordsman.... a wonderful character flavor, like a missing eye or hand, can be offset with a small advantage....


And my personal favorite.. A female PC "Blessed by the War God" also has "Delusions" that she's intimate with her god... her moans keep up the camp every night.
The day that our schools are well funded and the Airforce has to hold a bake sale to buy a new bomber, will be a good day!

Offline Skynet

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2008, 02:05:16 PM »
But having different looking skin is part of the talent Tough Skin Your skin is naturally toughened... you recieve a -20 to Appearance (due to the appearance of your skin)
As a GM I wouldn't allow someone to take unusual looks with Tough Skin, they're looks are unusual DUE to their tough skin, not in addition to it...

Good point, Joshua! I only looked at the minor talent, not the major and greater ones...  ::)

But I don't think it's the best way to go with talents. There could be some suggestions as to what a character could have as a flaw associated with a particular talent, but ultimately, it should be the responsability of the player (and the GM) to see that everything is turning out OK. The method I proposed in my previous post is still applicable : it just have to make sense. Beacause it can depend on the setting, you know. In an Exalted kind of game, you could probably select Tough Skin without any drawback because the setting itself suggest overpowered characters. But in your "typical" fantasy game, someone with tough skin would be forced to justify it's choice in some way. He cannot be tough just for the sake of it. That's where the GM or the player itself could suggest some flaw, unique look being the obvious way to go. So he has a tougher skin because [insert background here], so that with his skin is so leathery.

And my personal favorite.. A female PC "Blessed by the War God" also has "Delusions" that she's intimate with her god... her moans keep up the camp every night.

See, this is nice. And dramatically rich. This delusion could add some spice to the game as some priests of the war god learn about this and think she could be the key to some divine ritual to unlock the power of the war-forged sentinels. Thus another quest begins! But their intentions could be more... er, armful...  ;)

Offline Arioch

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2008, 02:50:43 AM »
Just as Blessed by War god would have some added drawbacks.... depending on your PC level you might have a reputation, you might be considered "Enemy" by followers of other religions... and so on... these things wouldn't be additional flaws, but intrinsic in being blessed by a war god.

Save that BBAWG already has its built-in flaw (10% each month of being called for a quest by your god)... I know that it would be logic to link the disvantages you listed to the talent, but they are simply a way of balancing things created by the GM, because otherwise the talent as written would be overpowered.
I also love the Talent/Flaws concept, but I think that they could be handled a lot better by the rules.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2008, 11:38:19 AM »

Blessed by War God -- What makes you think you are the only one? What makes you think that the others won't come hunting for you. After all, there can be only one. (i.e.the War God blesses a bunch of people and then let's them battle it out in their own little war to see who is the most worthy).

Players that received this gift in my campaigns all had some serious issues when their characters wanted to act freely and the god who blessed them had already decided for them...

Quickly, players decided that this talent was not so "cool".

Offline mocking bird

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2008, 12:07:44 PM »
Players that received this gift in my campaigns all had some serious issues when their characters wanted to act freely and the god who blessed them had already decided for them...

Quickly, players decided that this talent was not so "cool".

Which is really the main problem with many of the talents - the GM just does not take full advantage of the ramifications of them or doens't play with the flaws nearly enough.

One thing regarding power, uber OB talents and such.  When the GM ramps up the encounter to make it challenging fur such characters, they are that much more fatal for the characters standing around them.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2008, 03:16:52 PM »
Exactly. That's a point I tried to develop in some articles on my website. Since they are written in french I can't just publish them here though : /

Offline Nejira

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2008, 05:29:27 PM »
One of my grievances with the book (character law) as written are flaws which can be taken but hardly come into play, and the lack of "interesting" flaws. Lets take "Not Subtle" as an example. Now if the heavily armored fighter or mage takes it, it can be seen as min/maxing as its hardly a flaw since they rarely (if ever) are in need of sneaking, and its not really a flaw a sneaky character (thief/rogue) will take as it limits what he is good at, which kinda goes against the concept of such a character.

IMHO talents and flaws in particular should be more generally in nature so they appeal to all types of characters. Limit the purely gamemechanic flaws as -20 on X/Y, as they tend to bring out the bad in players. Rather make flaws which appeals to a roleplaying pov that can be brought into play without crippling the character (gamemechanic and/or roleplaying-wise) but actually bring roleplaying out. Mix up roleplaying and gamemechanics.

EG: Lisp, flaw
You talk funny, its especially the S and T sounds that you have troubles with. Its not something that hinders you greatly, though people tends to make fun of the way you speak. Mechanics: The characteŕs starting spoken language skills are reduced by one rank due to lisp. In addition the character will suffer a -10 penalty to Influence maneuvers due to this speech impediment.

EG: Low Tolerance for Alcohol, flaw
Its a fact of life that booze just hits some people harder than others. Depending on how you look at it, this could make you a laughing stock when you belly up to at the bar, or a very cheap date. Either way, most people who have this condition become known as "light-weights". Mechanics: For characters"suffering" from this condition, all drinks are effectively twice as potent.

and so forth. The more heavily gamemechanics the higher value flaw.
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Offline markc

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2008, 06:05:25 PM »
 IMO, I would use the "not subtle" flaw by increaseing the PC's chance to get hit during a random attack. Or anything else that happens by chancethey are going to be more involved as they stick out more.

 I think I can say again IMO the best use for the book is to develope races and provide a "concept of" talents the GM might want in his game. I try and remember rule 0 all the time. Rule 0=The GM has the right to change any thing for his game. And Rule 0A= Just because it is in a RPG book does not mean the GM has to use it for his game or game world.
 I can also say that I have had less than kind comments for RMSS: TL untill I cut the options I did not like and increase the points for most of the talents and used it to mainly create races. I would also like to state that my game is probably not like you game so my comments may or may not help you.

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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2008, 07:01:52 PM »
A thief with "not subtle" can be fun.  Imagine a poor soul who probably should not be a thief yet the vagaries of life have led him down his career path.

He could easily focus on influence and perception skills.  A few talents for social status and you have the basics for a very neat PC.

There is also the advantage that no one will imagine such a PC as a thief.  Surprise hasits own advantages.

lynn



I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline markc

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2008, 08:19:28 PM »
 Also reember that misdirection can be a big part or relieving others of their valuables. So watch the right hand not the left.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2008, 11:38:22 PM »
Also reember that misdirection can be a big part or relieving others of their valuables. So watch the right hand not the left.

MDC

My, my.  You sound like a politician ;)

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.