Author Topic: Talent Law?  (Read 10395 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Talent Law?
« on: June 09, 2008, 06:19:15 AM »
Been looking through Talent Law and am puzzled. I would like your thoughts on one of the talents under Special Training: Skilled. It grants a special bonus of X to one skill category and +Y on one specific skill within that category.

Now can you choose a weapon skill with this talent? If so when comparing it to Directed Weapons Master Minor where one WP skill is classified as Everyman. Now the minor version of Skilled grants you +10/+20.

Lets assume 10 ranks are bought. Then with Directed WPs Master you get 20 ranks for a total bonus of +50 (not including category bonus). With Skilled you get a total bonus of [30+10+20] +60 (again not including category bonus). Now I know with WP master you can eventuelly buy more ranks and get a higher bonus but that?s at a higher cost.

So would you say that you can select a weapon skill with the Skilled talent?
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 312
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2008, 06:39:58 AM »
Skilled grants you a +X in a skill OR a +Y in a skill category, so it's not so overpowering.

Then, the rules allow a weapon skill to receive theses bonuses. But you, as a game master, may prohibit it. It's up to you to decide.


Offline Arioch

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,903
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Blood & Souls for Arioch!
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2008, 06:46:30 AM »
In RMFRP the Talent "Skilled" gives you a +X bonus to a category or a +Y bonus to a skill, not to both. The Minor version, for example, gives you a +10 to a category or a +20 to a skill of your choice.

Besides that, Talent's costs are really unbalanced, many should be repriced/revised IMHO...
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2008, 07:21:37 AM »
Thanks for your replies :)

Quote
But you, as a game master, may prohibit it. It's up to you to decide.

I know but it always sounds as an excuse from the gamedesigners. "Hey if you dont like it, dont use it". What if I liked rules which had been given some thought before being published...

It seems I stand corrected. Skilled doesn?t give bonus to both category n skill :)

Besides that I agree, Talent Law seems rather unbalanced.
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline Phil

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 221
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2008, 07:25:21 AM »
Thanks for your replies :)

Quote
But you, as a game master, may prohibit it. It's up to you to decide.

I know but it always sounds as an excuse from the gamedesigners. "Hey if you dont like it, dont use it". What if I liked rules which had been given some thought before being published...

By the Gods, don't I agree with this! Just because the balance of each individual campaign is always going to be influenced by house rules and the myriad possibilities of characters, races and spells is not excuse not to at least *try* to maintain game balance!

Offline Cormac Doyle

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,594
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • RMC Team
    • The Aecyr Grene Campaign Setting
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 07:29:18 AM »
Talent Law WAS unbalanced - that was why it was radically revised for RMFRP (released under the name "Gamemaster Law")

GML changed many of the costs, and restructured many of the gifts and flaws.

I'd advise you check it out!

Offline Phil

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 221
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2008, 07:41:55 AM »
Character Law actually, but I get your meaning :)

(although if this is the re-balanced version I'm glad I never saw the old one!  ;) )

Offline Arioch

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,903
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Blood & Souls for Arioch!
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2008, 07:42:04 AM »
Talent Law WAS unbalanced - that was why it was radically revised for RMFRP (released under the name "Gamemaster Law")

RMFRP Talents are in Character Law  ;)
Even after the revision they're still unbalanced, IMHO. Just an example: "Eloquence" 15pts for a +25 on any spell casting manuever?  :o
And I don't really understand what's the point of having the "Skilled" talent and then a lot of other talents that do basically the same thing (+X to a cat or skill), for less points (Deadly Training; General Weapon Master; ...).
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 08:24:43 AM »
Yeah, I meant "Character Law" for RMFRPG. My bad (again)  :o

If the book I got is regarded the balanced one I agree with phild here and am glad I never saw the unbalanced version ;D

Althought I do get the idea of Talents n Flaws, I dont think they are handled that well. IMHO they should represents character traits more than simple bonuses to skills n rolls. Of course such traits should have a gamemechanic system to support it. But which Fighter wouldn?t take some of the fighter talents to become a even better fighter, then again all fighters would become even better...

If we said we had a design decision saying everything that makes a character better (training wise) is represented by skills becoming Everyman instead of having Everyman, Occupational, and +X options all mixed up. Then wouldn?t it be easier to balance it out (talent vs talent wise at least)?

If a character has a better sense of (hearing, smell,etc) then its +X to that specific sense.

And what if a Talent came with a specific Flaw instead of it being based on Y points. EG: Eloquence, because you spend your life being accustomed to relying on other means of persuation than physical combat, your Body Dev is lessened.

And please please, include in the rules that this Talent cannot be taken by (insert specific profession/race). EG: Power which gives you Y ranks for spells choosen within your own base, open and closed realm. But nothing (in the rules) prevents an thief from learning a few spells this way. I know you cant get any base lists because as a thief you dont have any, but you can get open/closed spelllists. I dont know the idea behind Power so I dont know if it was meant "only" for spell users or if it was meant as a pick me up some spells for all professions. I can of course ban it from my campaign but then I have to play the bad guy, plus have to actually sit down and read all the talents/flaws and have the surplus to determine which are balanced and which are unbalanced. IMHO I bought the book with the assumption that the book?s designers had done that for me :)

I like to quote phild here which seems to share my views (hope its alright phild ;) )
Quote
I want to know what the "canonical" view is for 3 main reasons:

1. I like to think that game designers have half a mind as to game balance when they send products out. Pre-balanced products save me at least part of a headache in evaluating how a given supplement or rule will fit into my game.

2. Players are awkward cusses, and anytime something can be spelled out in a book that I can roll up and thump them with, rather than invoking the GM Credo "It's my game, so there!", the better.

3. (and most pertinent to my current position) It's really hard to pull together character generation utilities when it's difficult to pinpoint what the official ruling on a matter is - yes, it's one thing to house-rule it, but it'd be nice when sharing my unlikely-ever-to-be-completed spreadsheet with the world to be able to say "yup, thems the rules"

Just some ideas going through my head (havnt done any math to check it out).
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 08:33:09 AM by Nejira »
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline yammahoper

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,858
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Nothing to see here, move along.
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 12:35:00 PM »
Talents really are there to provide a slate for design.  It is up to the GM, IMO, to provide the frame of reference.

Example, in may game world, no Mage Guild would allow an apprentice to leave/drop out once he has learned some of the Guilds inner secrets.  If the PC wants to be a guild drop out, fine, but access in training would be limited to lore skills and maybe power point dev.  A PC that escapes with spell list knowledge would be a wanted criminal by the guild and hunted by the guild.  A PC might leave with 50 ranks in opon list, but then I would apply duty flaws and the like, requiring the failed apprentice kkep affiliation with the guild and if not loyalty, then required service.  I would also apply the flaw Secret; reveal guild knowledge and the PC will be hunted for death...until the PC can come up with a way to buy his freedom from the Guild.  But thats game on!

For ICE to flesh out such specifics as requested, it would require they have a setting, which would allow for setting specific rules.  The old habit of ICE as a modular system useable in any other game system has its flaws, and here, for some, it shines through.

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2008, 09:33:43 AM »
Yes, the GM should provide the frame of reference. Most of my rant was directed at what I perceived as ill-balanced game mechanics ;D
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline yammahoper

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,858
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Nothing to see here, move along.
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2008, 09:45:12 AM »
I had to create a house rule that no skill could be modified by more than one talent after seeong this;

Racial training (+20 to six related skills, which were all combat oriented skills because the PC was a Vajaari Fighter), Weapon Master (everyman weapon skills), +60 mod to one skill or a +40 to one catagory (he chose +60 to broadsword).  Not a talent, but his tarining package was, of course, Weapons Master.

The result was an almost 200 OB at level one.  That was the last time I ever wanted to see that, so I adopted the "one talent rule" and the problem went away.  The real eye rolling moment for me came when I made him make some "adjustments" and he claimed to have shown restraint because he also wanted to be Blessed by War God... :-X

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Temujin

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 273
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2008, 09:53:24 AM »
he claimed to have shown restraint because he also wanted to be Blessed by War God... :-X

Ahah, good one!

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 09:59:49 AM »
Indeed, have to love players like that  :D
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 312
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 10:13:30 AM »
I am working on a way to make talent more streamlined with the rest of the character creation process.

My main problem right now is taht I am working on many things and that I won't have anything to show for a result until I have nailed it all, if i managed to do it :p

right now, I think talent pointsd or background options could be used in the character creation process on a "keying" basis (you have access to such talent if you are of such race or you must have such talent if you play such race and grow up in such culture). The goal is to have a character that is really deep and coherent.

Offline Arioch

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,903
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Blood & Souls for Arioch!
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 10:50:19 AM »
he claimed to have shown restraint because he also wanted to be Blessed by War God... :-X

Ahah, good one!

I had a player who, with some strange combination of race & flaws wanted to play a character with 3 Blessed by War God(s)...  ::)
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline croakerdogboy

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 123
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Software Developer/Writer/ Indentured Servant
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 10:58:23 AM »
Quote
I had a player who, with some strange combination of race & flaws wanted to play a character with 3 Blessed by War God(s)...  Roll Eyes

I have a name for people like that in my campaigns. They are called "that guy we used to play with".
It is the fundamental theory of all the more recent American law...that the average citizen is half-witted, and hence not to be trusted to either his own devices or his own thoughts.

H.L. Mencken

Offline Arioch

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,903
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Blood & Souls for Arioch!
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2008, 11:05:13 AM »
Quote
I had a player who, with some strange combination of race & flaws wanted to play a character with 3 Blessed by War God(s)...  Roll Eyes

I have a name for people like that in my campaigns. They are called "that guy we used to play with".

Lol, how strange, that's the name of this person, too!  ;D
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Elton Robb

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,206
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Master of Atlantis
    • The Atlantis Blog
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2008, 12:15:11 PM »
I had a player who, with some strange combination of race & flaws wanted to play a character with 3 Blessed by War God(s)...  ::)

Darn, I have one "War God" in my adventure.  Some id--- I mean interesting and inventive player --- might want to take "Blessed by War God" three times to play in the setting.
Personal Web Portfolio:
http://eltonatlantean.wix.com/portfolio
Deviant Art: http://atlantean6.deviantart.com/
Renderosity: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=561541

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Talent Law?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 01:02:39 PM »
The way I done it (this time) is a talent is bought with a flaw of same level (minor=minor, major=major, etc) but no Greater talents/flaws and a absolute max of five (guess how many has the max??? Yay, you guessed it all of em  ;D )

Next time, I think I will make a Build Point system for making characters. The idea is that you buy your stats (st, ag, qu, etc) with Build Points as well as race (an powerful race will cost more than mere human) and finally you can buy talents with Build Points. Of course certain inherit flaws appears, you can take a flaw to get more points to buy talents, etc. Still working on it, maybe removing talents all together and just use flaws.
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"