Topic: Races & Cultures errata?

[Phil]

Interesting point regarding talents: none of the three aquatic races in RMFRP Races & Cultures actually have a talent or special ability that says they can breath underwater - it's mentioned in the text but not anywhere officially. Plus the fact that their ability to swim as a core movement is only reflected as Everyman, not as a flat bonus, which means those characters who don't actually put DPs in ranks but rely on adolescent development aren't exactly the most mobile of underwater dwellers!!

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

In the RMSS (and I suppose RMFRP too) rule book, it is stated that a maneuver roll is required only for actions that require concentration or are done "under pressure".

Since see-dwelling creatures are used to swim like we are used to walk, I'd say that you juste have to roll for swimming when in a stressfull situation or when the PC is trying to push the milits of its abilities.

Just like when you roll a distance running, sprinting, climbing, etc... MM with a walking creature. You won't roll for walking 10 meters, you will for running at top speed for 100 meters or if you are chased by something hungry and run for your life.


This said, I don't understand why a sea dwelling creatures should use a talent to breathe under water Oo. If the race description says or implies it does, well, it does. You need talents to do things that are unusual, not for usual things.

[Phil]

This said, I don't understand why a sea dwelling creatures should use a talent to breathe under water Oo. If the race description says or implies it does, well, it does. You need talents to do things that are unusual, not for usual things.

It's explicitly said in the description of Common Men that they are the "baseline" against which other races are measured. Common Men cannot breathe under-water, so it follows that the ability to do so is an enhancement - a special ability. Clearly the ability to breathe is not special, as most creatures do, but the ability to breathe both under-water and out of water represents an extraspecial ability to function in dual environments. It seems odd that this isn't firstly identified as a special ability, and secondly further defined to give the exact parameters of the abilities. After all, water-breathing is actually two abilities in one - it's the ability to operate with full effectiveness in the water, which the majority of PC races do not have, plus it's immunity to drowning, a very useful ability for those wanting to wear platemail on board ships!

Certainly if you're using the GM Law system of race generation, if an ability is not counted as a talent, it isn't costed, which means the whole GM Law race generation system breaks down. Not that it necessarily takes water-breathing humanoids to make that happen....

[Arioch]

This said, I don't understand why a sea dwelling creatures should use a talent to breathe under water Oo. If the race description says or implies it does, well, it does. You need talents to do things that are unusual, not for usual things.

I agree, in fact mermen and other water-dwelling races have special abilities that allow them to operate outside water. That's because they usually stay underwater and they operate normally in such enviroment, but they need a special talent to live out ot the water (just as a human would need a talent to live underwater).

It's explicitly said in the description of Common Men that they are the "baseline" against which other races are measured.

This is IMHO wrong. If it's true, why Common Men have +2 to SD and ST? Shouldn't they have a +0 to all stats?

[Phil]

It's explicitly said in the description of Common Men that they are the "baseline" against which other races are measured.

This is IMHO wrong. If it's true, why Common Men have +2 to SD and ST? Shouldn't they have a +0 to all stats?

Philosophically, you're correct. In game design terms, too, I think you're correct, but that's obviously a historical RM decision. Nonetheless, Races & Cultures explicitly describes Common Men as the baseline. It's also a common sense approach to require every deviation from the "norm" to have special rules - but then I've discovered in going through each of the books in detail over the last few weeks that RM does leave an awful lot of gaps (design decision or occasionally ropey sub-editing? Bit of both I suspect!)

[Arioch]

I've discovered in going through each of the books in detail over the last few weeks that RM does leave an awful lot of gaps (design decision or occasionally ropey sub-editing? Bit of both I suspect!)

Yes, that's I think that RM really need a revision sooner or later 

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

I just think that the writers decided that the readers were smart enough to realize that water dwelling or amphibious creatures breathe underwater and are not supposed to live far from large bodies of water.

Just like the winged creatures do not have a "flying" special ability.

RM is not a specification document for a computer application.

Sure, RM needs a revision. I am not sure that handing "special abilities" around is the way to go though.

[Phil]

I just think that the writers decided that the readers were smart enough to realize that water dwelling or amphibious creatures breathe underwater and are not supposed to live far from large bodies of water.

Just like the winged creatures do not have a "flying" special ability.

RM is not a specification document for a computer application.

Sure, RM needs a revision. I am not sure that handing "special abilities" around is the way to go though.

OK, so then what are the parameters of these abilities? Can mermen breathe in salt water and fresh water? How fast can mermen swim, as opposed to humans? (as per the rules, there's nothing that says they swim any faster). What is their above ground movement speed - is this also the same as humans. And, critically IMHO in order to maintain some modicum of balance between races, how have these non-standard abilities been taken into account when calculating how many BGOs these races get?

(and yes, I could work these out for my campaign, but I could also make up my own game rules, critical tables and weapon charts - the reason I buy RPG books is because, frankly, my time is valuable and I'd rather someone else did most of the thinking for me! )

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Now, you point out something that indeed lacks in R&C : detailed information.

[Gondor]

A quick question (or two)...

Is the Base Move for horse centaurs (or any centaur) the same as in C&M, and does that include/ not include hieght mods or quickness mods.  Do they have mods to carry items like "load" for a horse.  Can they carry a rider?

[Arioch]

There are no special rules about Centaur movement in R&C 
However, for load I would treat them has horses and yes, I would say that they can carry a rider!

[rdanhenry]

I just think that the writers decided that the readers were smart enough to realize that water dwelling or amphibious creatures breathe underwater and are not supposed to live far from large bodies of water.

You could assume that, yes, but then you might not last so long playing a dolphin. Since mermaids are traditionally depicted without gills, I am inclined to assume that they are air-breathers. There are a lot of air-breathing life form that live in the ocean, either part time or full time. (The traditional depiction of the mermaid has her coming up out of the ocean rather like a seal or sea lion.)